Integrated Amp for low to medium volume listening

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by antoniofhowe, Jan 26, 2015.

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  1. No Static

    No Static Gain Rider

    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Creek makes some nice integrated amps.
     
  2. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    Yes, if you can stretch your budget a bit more the Select version of the Zen Triode will offer a tad more refinement and a nicer looking chassis as well. The only option I would recommend would be the Stepped Attenuator for $100 extra, but I would stick with the cryo'd beeswax caps as people are reporting they are more organic sounding than the V-Caps which are also offered and more expensive as well.

    Also watch people's reaction when they see the gear as Decware doesn't hide their tubes in a closed in chassis. It never fails when I have somebody new over, they're always going to ask "what is that?" pointing to the Taboo ... its a great conversation piece and then once I start playing music on it "WTF?" usually comes next. :laugh:

    Since the Decware bases can be made in your choice of wood and so can the Omega speakers ~ you should consider getting the same wood for the amp and speakers for a really aesthetically pleasing system that looks as good as it sounds. Walnut is my favorite as it's like the classic hi-fi wood, but Zebra and other exotics can be ordered for a bit more which would look really cool too. Not just ear candy, but eye candy too. :cool:
     
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  3. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    You are here
    amps are about more than volume. have a listen to a few in your budget range. Tube and SS but please try the equipment out at home if possible. if not, at least match your equipment as close as possible.
     
  4. antoniofhowe

    antoniofhowe Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Airdrie, Canada
    Yes, if I was going to invest the money this is the way I would go. On their site it works out to just under $2000 CDN, plus another $100 (ish) for shipping. I imagine my current speakers will work with this amp (for now), just not as well as high efficiency of course.

    Regarding speakers, is there a particular reason you would recommend the Omega's over Decware's DM946?

    Walnut all around is exactly what I was thinking as well!
     
  5. antoniofhowe

    antoniofhowe Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Airdrie, Canada
    I'll be the first to admit I do not have a full understanding of speaker efficiency yet, but the MA site lists their sensitivity at 90db (1w@1m)
     
  6. antoniofhowe

    antoniofhowe Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Airdrie, Canada
    This is my plan, I'm not in a huge rush to upgrade so I'm willing to spend my time on this, and even up my budget if I think it's worth it (as you could probably already tell from the Decware discussion).
     
    Gordon Johnson likes this.
  7. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    Your current speakers will not be a good match for that particular amp. That amp is only 2 watts, as beautiful watts as they are ~ it will strain to drive your speakers to anything but low to medium volumes and with almost no overhead and you will lose dynamics. The reason I chose the Omega over the Decware is that I personally favor single driver coherent type speakers. The speed and imaging are really amazing and holographic and unlike anything else I have heard.

    The Omega RS7 @ 95dB and 8 ohms are slightly more efficient and being crossoverless easier to drive than the Decware as well. Even thought the Decware DM945/946 says it can be driven with only 2 watts I know a couple guys who suggest more power and it has a crossover so it will take a little more juice to get the same volume. If you wanted to go with the DM 945/946 I would suggest getting the Decware Rachel @ 6 watts for a little more breathing room but then we are talking about a little more money.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  8. JakeLA

    JakeLA Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, CA
    As is so often the case in these forums, the OP asks a perfectly valid question, and the response is, "Buy what I have."

    The OP asked if a different amp would improve his low-level listening. He didn't ask about single-driver speakers or beeswax caps.

    The reason his amp doesn't sound satisfying at low levels isn't the amp's fault. It's because at low volumes the human ear isn't as sensitive to lower and higher frequencies. That's why the music sounds a little thin and lifeless when it's turned down low.

    Neither a tube amp, nor higher-efficiency speakers is going to make his ears work differently.

    But he could get an amp with a loudness control. That would actually make an audible difference. Contrary to what some think, loudness controls aren't designed to boost the bass for when you're having a party, they're meant to compensate for the ear's deficiencies by increasing the low and high frequencies just enough so you're getting a balanced sound at low volumes.

    Yamaha has a series of integrated amps, the AS-XXX series, that has a variable loudness control that works really well. You play some music at a fairly loud volume, then you turn it down to whatever low-level you need to listen to, and adjust that control so it matches what you hear at a higher volume. It's not just a button that's either on or off, that's what's great about it.

    I don't have any of the Yamaha amps myself, but I heard one of the mid-level ones at a friend's house and it had a nice, smooth sound. They range in price from $350 to a few grand, depending on wattage and fanciness. The $900 version has a DSD/PCM dac built in, which is nice.

    You can get them via Amazon, so you could always order one, listen to it for a few weeks, and send it back if you're not happy.
     
    martinb4 and bluemooze like this.
  9. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    I'm not sure if that last post was directed at me, but ...within the context of his first post the OP also asked for suggestions within his budget and a lot of people mentioned things they thought would work for him ... in fact so did you. That's the whole idea of this thread. He found an interest in what I mentioned, asked more info about it and in post #15 even mentioned he was seriously considering it, so I gave him additional suggestions on what options would be best to go with it if purchasing. So its all within the context of the conversation.

    When considering a really low watt tube amp like that ~ speaker pairing and synergy are an absolute must, so that speaker suggestion is not only based on my tastes, but based on many peoples tastes, experience and research. I'm obviously not the only person who realizes that this is a really sweet combo as the 2 vendors I suggested have been in business for many years and are so busy they have lead times to fill orders and build the components ~ so they aren't going anywhere any time soon.

    Dynamic and synergistic components do help with low level listening. Also, IME there is a clarity and purity when listening this way, so harmony between components are a must. Most of my listening sessions are at night when everybody is asleep so I need to keep it relatively low and I have ran the gamut of quality solid state and tube components roll through my setup and I know some things that have worked better for me than others. Often I have found that simple circuit designs and simplicity work wonders (i.e. amplifiers with less internal parts, efficient and coherent speakers with simple to no crossovers, etc.). And while I agree that just any old tube amp and efficient speakers aren't going to change his ears, quality components such as the stuff I recommended will perk up the ears big time as things like resolution, imaging and soundstage that these components can achieve will have him on a whole other listening level.

    Most people always give suggestions on what they know, or have heard and what would fit within the OPs budget and likewise at the end of your post gave suggestions on what to buy as well. If somebody posted and said they needed a system to blow the roof off of their house I would not even bother posting as I'm not experienced enough with systems like that. But since I am very familiar with low level listening I feel I'm experienced enough to make valid suggestions to the OP in this regard.

    As to the OP's original post and his question "is it worth my money to upgrade the amp when I can't turn it up?" The answer is "yes" ... quality components that have synergy and dynamics with each other always make a difference no matter what level you're listening at and you don't need gimmicks to do it IMO.
     
  10. dennis the menace

    dennis the menace Forum Veteran

    Location:
    Montréal
    For under $2000 I got the Rotel RA-1570 paired with two B&W CM9 and I LOVE it. Great sound and warmth.
     
  11. antoniofhowe

    antoniofhowe Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Airdrie, Canada
    Honestly, I have found this thread to be more than I could have hoped for. Ultimately when asking the question like I did I was looking for the advice and recommendations of those with experience in my situation, which for the most part I received. It has put me on a new research path that I would never have considered had I not received the responses I did (emphasis on the Decware posts, let alone the tube recommendations in general). Also, in beowulf's defence, I did specifically ask about single-driver speakers when I asked why he would recommend the Omega's over the Decware speakers.

    I do understand what you're saying about how some threads do not provide much more than "get this and you'll be happy" with no context, but I don't feel that way about most of the posts in this thread.

    This is also something I would not have considered, I'll admit I have an aversion to introducing anything into the signal path from the source (especially when that source is my turntable). I do know where I can audition a couple Yamaha amps though so I'll give this a listen, thanks!
     
    Shiver likes this.
  12. antoniofhowe

    antoniofhowe Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Airdrie, Canada
    I'm not seeing a "Rachel" on their site, is this the integrated for $1295?
     
  13. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    Yes, it's actually the SE34I.4 Zen Triode Integrated (aka Rachel) @ 6 watts.
    [​IMG]

    It starts out at $1295, but once you add things like inputs, stepped attenuator it starts adding up. I would want at least 2 sets of RCA inputs at $150 and Stepped Attenuator at $150 + $1295 base price and you have $1595 respectively.
     
  14. antoniofhowe

    antoniofhowe Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Airdrie, Canada
    Don't forget the crappy Canadian Dollar right now :D

    [​IMG]
     
    beowulf likes this.
  15. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Indeed - that happens in a very high percentage of cases.
     
  16. antoniofhowe

    antoniofhowe Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Airdrie, Canada
    Well after a lot of internal debate on whether or not to go Tube i've decided to stay solid state... a primary factor being my always wanting to "tweak" and I know if I get into tubes I'll always be tube rolling and never fully happy.

    I jumped on a SimAudio Moon Neo 250i. I've only had it a few days so nowhere close to burned in but I'm pretty happy so far! The first 5-watts are Class A so that helps for the lower volume listening.
     
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  17. Linto

    Linto Mayor of Simpleton

  18. antoniofhowe

    antoniofhowe Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Airdrie, Canada
    Well, when "next time" comes up my budget will be considerably higher!

    One of the biggest selling points for me (other than the great sound from the in-home demo I did) is the fact that Simaudio is a Canadian company and the Moon Neo 250i was designed and manufactured in Canada.
     
  19. Congrats on the Simaudio! I have one and love it. I really enjoy the sound and it has great build quality. I've heard it with RX6's and am sure it will make your BX2's sing.
     
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  20. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    SimAudio have a great reputation and are made in North America (unlike Rega and Croft) so you would get better value.
     
  21. I agree. Simaudio and Monitor Audio make for a really nice pairing. MA must know this as well since at the last 2 TAVE shows in Toronto that's what they showed.
     
  22. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    Presumably the main problem for you with turning any amp you have up is an increase in bass as this may irritate your neighbours. The logic suggests you should therefore increase the volume but keep the bass the same. You can probably do this using bass traps.

    Bass traps absorb bass. Whilst there is less bass in the room you should still hear good bass at your listening chair. You can consult these people on this idea:

    http://www.gikacoustics.com/

    You can also get sonic insulation that can go under any carpet you have.

    I do all this and my neighbour below says she never hears my music - of course she may be being polite!
     
  23. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    You are here
    hey Hipper, it works. I don't hear your music either, lol
     
    Hipper likes this.
  24. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Camas
    Quicksilver makes great sounding amps and has an integrated amp.
     
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