Integrated vs. separates

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DaveyF, Feb 17, 2016.

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  1. DaveyF

    DaveyF Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    La Jolla, Calif
    Today, there are some excellent integrated amps on the market. The dartzeel and the new Jeff Rowland Daemon come to mind. However, I think that these pieces and others that portend to be high end still seem to have a certain 'hump' to get over. That 'hump' is the fact that most a'philes, including myself, believe that a great pair of separates still sound better. This really should not be the case in theory....the integrated can/ could just as easily encompass of all the same parts and quality as the greatest separates, and yet it can enjoy far shorter signal paths and do away with the connection that is required between amp and preamp....IOW...the interconnect cable. So, why is it that the integrated amp is still not of the very first category as to SQ and is still considered as the 'step child' in audio...??
    Perhaps, one of the designers/manufacturer's can make an integrated that will best all separates, question is why have so few even tried and secondly why has this not happened yet?

    Thoughts?
     
  2. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    It totally depends on the gear involved and what you are looking for. I've heard integrateds that take apart not only comparably priced seperates but also more expensive seperates and vice versa. For example I would out forward the ARC Reference 75 and the SP17 vs the VAC 160i. I've heard the them both over Vandersteens and would take the VAC 160i in a heartbeat.
     
    F1nut likes this.
  3. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    I think even beyond that would be a move away from pre/power or integrated amps to active speakers where the amp is developed specifically for the driver and use of a good preamp, either passive or active, thereafter. The underlying shift is away from big boxes and large separates setups I think.

    The traditional approach to music replay can be reappraised and the developments in technology, along with a growing availability and use of active speakers in the domestic market, offer positive signs that this area could really open up.

    Plus, these days a lot of people don't want the clutter that multiple boxes bring, niche audiophile groups might not mind, but times are changing and that includes for audiophiles.
     
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  4. ls35a

    ls35a Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, Idaho
    I really like integrateds for sound for the dollar. I was talking to a high end dealer I know recently. He said, 'no one buys separates anymore, all I sell is integrateds'.
     
    F1nut likes this.
  5. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    I think its outdated today. The original thinking about pre/power was that you could have the pre close to armchair for convenience, and the power amps near the loudspeakers .
    Against this, upgrade ability.on being able to upgrade pre leaving power amp untouched.
    Most people today use a seperate phonostage into their seperate pre! Does not make sense does it, when you then factor in a pair of interconnect which can cost £30 - ?
    Makes more sense to have a pre amp with built in phono stage
    We also have remote control so don,t need a pre for armchair convenience.
    Last of all is the noise/hum factor where having pre/power too close.
    When did you lastly hear a hum or noise intrusion from integrated. No contest today, we don,t need seperate pre and power!
    From a marketing/ profit angle its good from the manufacturers point of view, good too for the cable supplier!
    There is the snob angle,
    I recently bought an integrated and was amazed how good it was!!
    Food for thought?
     
  6. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    In the past I owned separates, SS and tube. Today I own various integrated amps. I hear no reason to go back to separates.
     
  7. Daedalus

    Daedalus I haven't heard it all.....

    Not only integrateds but vintage receivers-buy right and have them redone. Big juicy sound.
     
    russk likes this.
  8. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident

    I've got Croft pre-power separates as my main amplifier solution and I have a separate Arcam Delta 290 Integrated that acts as a headphone amp and also as an alternative amplifier solution whenever I fancy a change.

    Both the pre-power and the integrated are excellent and each has its own virtues and vices.

    The bad thing about separates is the need for expensive interconnects.

    The good thing about separates is that I can upgrade the pre or power side of things separately and, therefore, potentially more cheaply.

    In the end, it's whatever suits....
     
    Thorensman likes this.
  9. royzak2000

    royzak2000 Senior Member

    Location:
    London,England
    I just wanted to simplify, I was using a pre and mono-blocks. Now I can fit everything onto a four shelf rack.
     
  10. Humbuster

    Humbuster Staff Emeritus

    My primary system is Integrated (McIntosh) and my secondary system is Integrated (Yamaha).
    No regrets here.
     
    wgb113 likes this.
  11. 500Homeruns

    500Homeruns Peaceful Punk

    Location:
    Lehigh Valley, PA
    My next system upgrade is probably going from pre/power to an integrated. Most likely Rogue Audio.
     
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  12. GoldprintAudio

    GoldprintAudio Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lexington, NC
    For the most part, this is pretty much true for me as well. I would say it's about a 7 out of 10 ratio, integrated to separates here.
     
  13. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    There is still a good case to be made for separates. Flexibility is the first one I can think of. If you get a power amp that you love, it is likely to be a great performer for many, many years. Technology can move much more quickly in a preamp and has more things that can fail. Being locked into the phono or DAC for the life of the amp may not be be great ten years from now. Those things can be upgraded but you wind up with separates in that case as well.

    Going separate you can customize to your own preferences. A tube pre to a SS amp or visa versa and the ability to merge different house sounds so to speak. A McIntosh solid SS amp with a Conrad Johnson pre or any number of combination. With separates you can explore, buy used stuff just to see how it sounds and pass it along if you don't like it.

    Integrated can be great and certainly the simplicity, lack of interconnects and separate power supplies/cables is a HUGE advantage. At my price point, my concern is that the integrated is built to a price point and compromises are made to hit that mark. I like to spend some time saving money to get the bast amp I can afford and then repeat to then get the best pre. Doing all at once would mean getting less of both.
     
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  14. Colin M

    Colin M Forum Resident

    If I glue the Tisbury passive preamp to the top of the Quad 909, that'll make an integrated?
     
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  15. royzak2000

    royzak2000 Senior Member

    Location:
    London,England
    Everyone to his own, but no.:agree:
     
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  16. Heavy Music

    Heavy Music Forum Resident

    Right now my two audio/stereo systems are comprised of both integrated and separate power amplifiers. The integrated units are used as preamps for the power amps. One my reasons for this is I first bought integrated initially to use as such. I then bought upgraded separate power amps, and so save money I re-used the integrated as pre-amps. Now if one of my separate power amps blow, I have a back-up with the integrated amp!
     
  17. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    That is a smart way to do things. Any integrated should have pre outs so you have that option if you should want it at any point.
     
    Vinyl Fan 1973 likes this.
  18. dividebytube

    dividebytube Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    As already stated, I like separates for flexibility. For example, I really love vintage amplifiers - usually running tube or early solid-state McIntosh gear. Vintage preamps, however, are usually more problematic - dirty potentiometers, funky switches - that require more work to bring back to snuff. So I usually run a vintage amp with a newer preamplifier.

    My - very strange - system right now is a McIntosh MC2100 amplifier with an Adcom GFP-555 preamp/tuner combo. I've been planning on replacing the Adcom gear with a McIntosh tuner preamp, but just haven't gotten around to it yet. Priorities!

    Though I do admit I've been thinking of splurging on an newer Mac integrated and just be done with the whole deal. I'm just not playing the swap/upgrade game as much as I used to.
     
  19. BKphoto

    BKphoto JazzAllDay

    simplicity is the key for me...I went from a lot of components to 2...

    very happy...
     
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  20. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Why did i not think of that!
     
  21. tyinkc

    tyinkc Senior Member

    Location:
    Fontana, Wisconsin
    I don't have the means for super high end gear, but I have nice separates for my main system and a integrated for my second system in my office. I love them both.
     
  22. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    It's a hump, rather than a true technical hurdle, because once the engineering gets up above the $2000 retail threshold, it starts getting really heard for even people with really great ears to detect the improvements (or just differences) in quality. I know lots of people with gear that reviewers insist rates more highly than my own, but that higher end stuff is being used in listening rooms or living rooms or dens or family rooms that are subject to ambient noise of various kinds (forced air furnace, A/C, traffic noise, etc., etc.) that prevent users of the terrific gear from hearing the benefits being offered by the gear. The smaller percentage of integrated amps and preamp/amp separates are being used in dedicated and well set up and ambiently quiet listening rooms.


    . . . "in theory"? I think that depends on what theory you're thinking of. There are plenty of separates that are specified technically lower than some integrateds, and vice versa. There's no hard rule among manufacturers that separates have to be technically superior by definition. There's a perception in the retail world - a perception that has been heavily marketed for a couple generations - that separates are supposed to be where audiophiles should be encouraged to live, but how then do we argue against the obvious quality of integrateds like a Naim Supernait 2 or one of those PrimaLuna things or one of the latest Rogue Audio or Synthesis integrateds (among many others?) I mean to say that chasing after specs for high end separates that offer audio qualities that people in real listening environments at home can barely discern (if at all) really answers your question in large part. I think that, to a great extent, the industry itself has ch0sen separates as the products to most often place in that part of their business they refer to as premium products. There again though, there's no technical reason (that translates into something that most end users in most home listening rooms can actually hear) that makes separates obviously or consistently, from maker to maker, better than integrated designs.

    There is a technically barely measurable difference between most separates connected by ICs and most integrateds, but there's no hard and fast rule that one measurement will be audibly better (or even audibly discernible compared to the other). I think you've made a lot of assumptions that might hold up on paper (depending on what products at what price points you'e comparing at any given time), but that often don't hold up in actual listening rooms. I think that problem of comparison speaks directly to the need to do in-home auditions before making a buying decision involving separates vs. integrated at any given budget level. Keep in mind that the technical differences touted by a maker of separates (or integrateds) may be technically accurate and demonstrable (with a scope or some other measuring instrument) and all that, but may not have any actual bearing on what someone actually hears in their own listening room.

    Lots of technical measurements are thrown around to impress prospective buyers, whether the buyer is considering speaker cables, ICs, preamp/amp, integrated or what have you. The fact that some measurement is technically true, does not mean it has anything to do with what they buyer is going to hear when he gets the gear home. Cable makers, for example, babble on about skin effect and related 'issues' that have no practical application for audio wire gauge sizes or lengths. Engineers who used to make decisions about what sort of wire to use for tens (or hundreds of miles) of telephone wire or high tension wire certainly had to care about skin effect. Still though, audio cable makers still sometimes include warnings about the deleterious effects of the "skin effect" but naturally also don't provide electrical measurements because no such measurements apply at audio frequencies, cable gauge or wire lengths. Ditto for some specs quoted by makers of amp/preamp separates and integrateds. THD differences touted by various separates makers (over integrateds) are often so far below the threshold of audibility in even the finest listening rooms that the differences are completely meaningless. The competing integrated may have, at least in some product comparisons, a higher measured THD, but the number is typically also still so far below the threshold of audibility as to be meaningless.

    Get the right room together and audition gear in that room. Getting the room "together" only means setting up the sapce needed for your equipment after taking into account the demands or needs of a significant other, kids if you have them, decor, etc., etc. - i.e., all the things that impose upon the ideal room in the typical household. Obviously that means some rooms in some homes will inevitably be more "together" than others. Audition, audition, audition. After you hear enough gear in your own listening room, the technical or merely touted differences between separates and integrateds will arrange themselves into their appropriate levels of value for whomever is doing the auditioning. The great thing these days is that there are so many makers producing wonderful gear that it's get
     
  23. ServingTheMusic

    ServingTheMusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    SoCal
    Great thread. I find myself often womdering which set up makes more sense but ultimatley there are many reason in favor of both. As you noted, shorter signal paths, one less cable, etc is a big plus for the one box solution..and there imtegrateds with superb sounding DACs on board.

    For sepaerates...clearly the advantage is the ability to customize the sound more..by mixing and matching preamp and power amp.

    I don't think separates are dying out at all btw...their are loads amd loads of new preamps and power amps being introduced all the time.
     
    Shawn likes this.
  24. DaveyF

    DaveyF Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    La Jolla, Calif
    Ultimately it probably comes down to taste..however, i do think that a manufacturer could design and manufacture an integrated that could be a world beater. So much so, that it would insure that many a'philes would never bother with separates again. Plus, i would think that this piece could be produced for less money than the current SOTA separates. ( One box vs. two, etc.,) The other points that have been brought up so far, mainly in reference to separates, are of course quite valid, question is for how long will these points stand when the very best gear is typically integrated?? Or perhaps this will not happen...and the integrated will always be considered as slightly less desirable ( Probably true, if the marketers continue to have their way).
     
  25. Daddy Dom

    Daddy Dom Lodger

    Location:
    New Zealand
    I'm about to go from integrated to pre/power. I feel like it's a Graduation of some sort. I also feel I'll go back again one day. :rolleyes:
    In any case, I have a separate phono stage so my integrated wasn't even that.
     
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