Interconnect Cables- Eating my Words

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by avanti1960, Jul 8, 2015.

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  1. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    Yeah, those old monkey coffins, and phono carts too can be responsible for more "character" and coloring, good and often, not so much good or truth than any other aspect of a well tuned HiFi. But It's a tricky thing. I'll stick with focus on source, thank you. I agree that cables are at best, a fine-tune thing. But the arc of this conversation is not about hierarchy, AND if you have never heard a mains cable drop the noise floor and open up the soundstage, you're missing a real treat!
     
    Gary likes this.
  2. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    What you have said is the key important point, "Cables are passive. They can only attenuate, reduce, roll off. They cannot boost or increase anything.".

    Audiophiles have long held the position that their definition of the "perfect" power amplifier is "a straight wire with gain".

    That being the case, I would think that the audiophile definition of any cable, would be a straight wire. This wire would be completely transparent to the signal. Meaning that the wire (cable) should have neither gain nor attenuation, period. Ideally, that cable or wire should neither add or subtract anything from the signal. Noting that, in the real world, all wire will have some amount of DC resistance, this will at least translate into the same amount of pure AC resistance.

    I totally agree that the "free" cables that come with most devices are poorly made and should be replaced with well manufactured cables with quality connectors. These can be done by almost anyone with a modest investment. I would use, as an example, Blue Jeans Cable, just good quality all the way around and should last forever.

    The number one way that speaker cables effect sound is by increased capacitance, which translates to attenuation of lower frequencies, resulting in a brighter, perhaps more crisp sound.

    Any way you look at it, you are modifying the sound. No different than tone controls, EQ, sound processors. You don't have to alter the sound signature with expensive cables, you can do it any number of ways.
     
  3. bluesky

    bluesky Senior Member

    Location:
    south florida, usa
    Happiness is finding the 'right' cables for your system.
     
  4. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I often hear that capacitance will roll off the high rather than low frequencies. I'd be interested in reading up on this. I would also note, that based on my testing of cartridge response, I find no measurable different between a 350 pF interconnect and a 100 pF iterconnect. I can measure the capacitance difference, I can hear a difference, but when I look at the frequency response off the phono preamp, it is all within the same range.

    Also, how does inductance factor in?
     
  5. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    We were are skeptics in the beginning , but hearing is believing.
     
  6. mojomojo

    mojomojo Active Member

    Location:
    SF,Ca
    Today I saw a guy with a walking cane with little blinking lights.
    Add little blinking lights to interconnects and you will be a millionaire.
     
  7. skriefal

    skriefal Senior Member

    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    Yet another "innovation" for Monster -- hybrid interconnects / rope lights.
     
  8. PopularChuck

    PopularChuck Senior Member

    Location:
    Bay Area
    Two words: Signal Cable

    High-end cables, mid-level prices, made in NY. The Silver Resolution interconnects are fantastic... I was stunned by the improvement in clarity and resolution.
    I've also got MagicPower power cables and Ultra speaker cables.
    I used to think spending a lot on cables was for suckers, and that Monster Cable and the like was fine.

    Fantastic products, fantastic customer service.

    I also upgraded the cable on my Sennheiser HD650s with Moon Audio Silver Dragon cable. Again... Wow. Huge improvement.
     
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  9. Blair G.

    Blair G. Senior Member

    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    My Arcam CD player has dual outputs so I can connect two sets of interconnects simultaneously and flick back and forth between the inputs on my amp.
    Doesn't matter what cables I try, the differences are always obvious.
    Can't always say one is "better" mind you, just different.
    Sometimes one cable suits the recording better than the other.
     
  10. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    I'll second the Signal Cable shout out. I initially added their Silver Resolution phono interconnect and heard an immediate and substantial improvement. Just this week I finally added a set of S.R. Interconnects from my preamp to the receiver, replacing a set of Black Cat Morpheus. Once again I heard an immediate improvement, the clarity and dimension of the bass on Rickie Lee Jones's "Danny's All Star Joint" became a whole lot more real in the room. I also began using the S.R. digital coaxial cable from my CD player to the DAC, and swapped the DAC's power chord for Signal's Magic Power Digital Reference.

    I knew nothing about specialty cables until reading about them here, and was very skeptical. I changed my tune after buying two used pairs of the Black Cat Morpheus interconnects here on the forum for just $45 a set. I figured at that price I had relatively little to lose, so why not. Once they were installed it took just a few minutes to understand what the fuss about cables was all about. I'm comfortable at Signal Cable's price point, so it's all good. I know others spend much much more, and if they can swing it, I say enjoy.
     
  11. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Look at a simple 3-way crossover. It will have an inductor to block high frequencies and pass the low frequencies to the woofer, a capacitor to pass the highs to the tweeter, while blocking the low frequencies and have an inductor in parallel with a capacitor for the midrange.

    Inductors tend to allow low frequencies to pass while capacitors will block low frequencies and allow high frequencies to pass.

    Some speaker manufacturers who don't use crossovers, like Zu, will have just a capacitor connected to the tweeter to block the low frequencies from getting to the tweeter, so that they do not damage the tweeter.


    Inductance plays a smaller part with cables than capacitance, inductance occurs when coils of wire are placed next to each other, like in a transformer.

    If you were to coil your speaker wire, you could introduce inductance in the wire, though I doubt that you, as a human being, would be able to hear any difference.
     
  12. BrewDrinkRepeat

    BrewDrinkRepeat Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merchantville NJ
    Which is really the only valid way to audition different cables. Our auditory memory is incredibly brief, and is also altered by other tasks (i.e. even if you are set up to be incredibly fast as switching cables, not only does the amount of time affect your perception but so does the mental distraction of actually making the switch). Our brains simply are not wired to retain subtle auditory cues (which is what we're looking at when auditioning cables), as there is absolutely no evolutionary need for that.
     
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  13. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    You are making this point well, and it seems it is well understood. Even our visual memory is extremely short.

    I also give credibility to the idea that you can listen for certain details in a recording, and note these markers. I think this does help us overcome the limitations of auditory memory. For example, how is it that we tell the difference between two different pressings of a recording?
     
  14. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Agree to an extent. If we're talking subtle differences then yes, quick switching is a must.
    If there are certain more obvious, repeatable flaws or preference issues in the sound and the cable swap fixes them, then auditory memory becomes reliable and no need for quick switching to make the comparison. In my case the issues were obvious and repeatable and the new interconnects fixed them.
     
    VinylRob likes this.
  15. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    I truly believe, if cables did no more than fail by omission to be purely transparent, cable evaluation would be far easier than it appears to be.

    Most, (some are praported to be actively shielded, but those aside) are not active in a traditional sense, but I feel calling them passive, is a huge over simplification.

    IMHE the active, or reactive corruption by the dielectric (insulating materials) seems to be a big part of the differences I've heard. Some of the most neutral and transparent cables ever had an air or virtually no dielectric.

    Many cables seem to confuse the soundstage or tonally take things out of balance cross the frequency range. Whether it is due to geometry, or impure materials, or just the lack of consistent material from the connectors on through the loom, something appears to be making a fairly dramatic difference. Some are very similar and a bit tricky to try to understand differences consistently but often, it is far from subtle and doesn't need rapidfire A/B comparisons.

    Cabling also seems to have a break in, burn in, or settle in period just as most other components too. It's as day and night as my amps warming up!
     
  16. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    I couldn't disagree more strongly. Our ability to detect subtle auditory cues is key to communication with other humans. I also disagree with the notion we have a short auditory memory. How else could we recognize a voice we haven't heard for a long time if not for excellent auditory memory?
     
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  17. BrewDrinkRepeat

    BrewDrinkRepeat Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merchantville NJ
    You of course remember the generalities of what you heard (as you said, that's how you recognize a voice, a song, a sound in the wilderness, etc.) but your precise memory of the exacting specifics lasts a mere few seconds.

    If you heard your uncle's voice after ten years you would of course recognize it right off, but you wouldn't notice that it had dropped a few cents over the years due to age like you would if you heard recordings of the two back-to-back; if you heard one mastering of Dark Side Of The Moon at 10am and a different one at 5pm you might notice they were different, and you might even be able to explain how in a general sense, but you would not be able to identify specific frequency or dynamic range differences in any detail as you could if you A/B compared them.

    When we're talking about the differences between cables we're talking about things that are, to all but the most keenly aware, exceptionally subtle. (Yes, even the folks who use terms like "night and day" are still describing what are in all reality very minute differences, they are just minute differences of extreme importance to them! This is one of the things that separates an audiophile from a casual listener, after all.)
     
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  18. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Yup, the descriptive abilities of one individual to another plays a big part.
     
  19. jonstatt

    jonstatt Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    At the end of the day, in my opinion, a cable should not "change" the sound. I feel very strongly about this. Saying my CD player is bright, so I need to have a warm cable, is not a solution in my opinion. Start with getting the source quality right, and build from there gives a better overall and sustainable system.

    I am well aware of the sound difference between cables that make "intentional" differences. I am also well aware of the fact that the cheapest nastiest freebie cables lack sufficient shielding and are not transparent at all. I can very easily prove the difference between one of those cheap bundled RCA cables and a reasonably constructed mid-price cable. This is particularly profound over 2-3m distances.

    What a lot of people forget is that the sound transfers through your CD player over PCB tracks for quite a distance before it leaves the player via metal sockets....and then this is mirrored in the pre-amplifier where you get another set of sockets and then the audio traverses over internal PCB tracks again. So one can question the validity of going insane with the cable when it's influence is only a fraction of the total travel of that signal.

    Nevertheless, I am in full support of good, well constructed, low capacitance cables with adequate shielding, good soldering and good quality plugs/termination. And that you cannot buy for 5 dollars!!
     
  20. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Biggest impact on sound? Speakers.
     
  21. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    A capacitor and a resistor can be configured as either a high pass filter or a low pass filter.

    With line level interconnects rhe output impedance of the source and capacitance of the cable form a low pass filter attenuating signal above a cutoff frequency defined by the values of the impedance and capacitance. Of course impedance is more complicated and variable than simple DC resistance, but given the typical values we're talking about here -- source impedances of 200 to a couple of thousand ohms, and cable capacitances of 15 to 40 pF/ft, you can think of it as an RC low pass filter, with the typical cut off point being well above the audible range unless you're dealing with unusually high output impedances, unusually high capacitances or very long runs of cable (such that the total capacitance of the run of cable is very high).

    The situation with phono carts is a little different. In that case you have an RLC resonanting circuit formed by the inductance of the cart, the capacitance of the cable and in the input resistance of the phono stage. Those kinds of circuits have a ringing resonance at a certain frequency and a steep roll off of frequencies above the resonant point. More capacitance in that kind of circuit tunes the resonant frequency lower, less capacitance tunes the resonant frequency higher. The resistance damps the amplitude of the resonance. A lighter load -- higher value of input resistance -- will let the resonance ring more, a heavier load -- lower value of resistance -- will damp the resonance more.

    With speaker cable the ouput impedances are so low -- fractions of an ohm with solid state, maybe an ohm or two with some vintage tube amps -- that the low pass filter effects with cables of typical capacitance (something like Belden 5000UE has a capacitance of 24 pF/ft) and length in home audio use, that low pass filter effects aren't a concern. I don't know if the capacitance of the cable and the resistance of the speaker is likely to be having an impact on the low pass and high pass effects of the speaker crossovers. You're talking about such low levels of capacitance -- 2400 pF or .0024 uF in the case of, say a 10 foot run of 5000UE -- that I don't know if it's material. But I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the speaker math.
     
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  22. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    ^The poster here above did a good job trying to explain the different aspects of capacitance and inductance in cabling. Unfortunately, the audience is partially deaf to science in general.

    What I want to point out is that what define a capacitor is the Physics law Q=CV and what defines an inductor is the Physics law V=-dI/dt.

    If you don't know what this means in terms of circuit analysis please shut up, because these are the RULES. When audiophile amateurs start to talk about inductance, capacitance and impedance in general without having enough education, that is just pitiful. Please...

    And I want here just forget about the bestial obscenities I have heard and read in audio discussions about dielectric polarization.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2015
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  23. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    What defines an awful lot of audiophile law is the sum of B+S leading to a fair bit of spurious output.
     
  24. Captain Wiggette

    Captain Wiggette Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    No, room.
     
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  25. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    No, mood.
     
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