Is $2500 the point of diminishing returns?

Not overly impressed with the Naim set-up.It's on long term loan at my brothers house currently..I found my finds from ebay (Philips CD-380 & Denon 250III - purchased for £30 &£45 ) sounded as good ,if not better..17k on a amplification does seem a lot to get what should be just a transparent path between front-end and speakers.Or did you spend that amount in order to enhance and colour the sound positively in order to make the original recording sound better than it would on another neutral system.? Just curious,because audiophiles seem to spend a lot more time money and time on sound quality, than the people who's recordings they are playing through them.Which are invariably flawed.Or at least 95% are.
I spend most of my time and money finding and tracking down the 5% of great recordings rather than getting overly hung up on the fine details of my already more-than-capable system.

 

Of course there would be a large difference between those two sets of speakers, but I don't think that involves the concept of diminishing returns. Diminishing returns means for every time I spend the same amount of money, the amount of improvement gets smaller and smaller. I do think that holds true after a certain point. Certainly when you compare two sets of speakers with one costing 15X more there will be a very big difference, but it will not sound 15X better.
As an example, my base digital system (speakers, amp and CD player) cost around $3500 dollars. My brother In-law has a system costing just over $14000 dollars. Yes, his sounds better and I can clearly hear it. After a long session with his system I always feel mine puts a little harsh edge in the music and doesn't feel as smooth. (sorry, I don't speak fluent audiophile.) But even my brother In-law calls the difference in the two systems "refinement" and admits the difference is not all that huge. I would trade systems in a heartbeat, but would I trade my system and $11000 dollars for his? No. I am fortunate in that I could spend that money if I really wanted to, but I certainly would not be considered wealthy, and what I own has to feel like a good value to me. It was actually after getting to spend time with the $14000 system and another friends even more expensive system that I finally relaxed and got over the constant upgrade cycle. I realized I could never afford a system that would really make me say wow! since neither one of these did.

 

My Cary SLP-05 pre-amp has an MSRP around $8,000 these days. Designed by Dennis Had back in 2005. Mine is upgraded by the factory with better caps and resistors plus I have NOS tubes. This pre-amp is priced where diminishing returns kick in for me, of course. There are less pricey tube pre-amps for those who find that diminishing returns kick in sooner.

You won't find pro reviews or owners going on about "enhancing" or "coloring" sound. The best designed pre-amps do less harm to the signal. Sincerely.

 

Because of diminishing returns I only buy used equipment nowadays, except for carts of course.

 

I always wanted Nautiluses (Nautili?) just because they look so Lovecraftian.

 

Truly a surperb Cary pre-amp!

My diminishing returns are with a simpler model.

This was a product being offered by the now defunct Internet direct division of Cary Audio, Audio Electronics, Internet Direct Price $1,500.


Bought mine NIB, for $750, when they were being liquidated as "open box" specials.

Not a custom SLP05, but for decent audio on the cheap, it works, uses 6SN7 tubes, runs in class-A mode and weighs 22-lbs.

I have had this pre-amp about four years now. I used to shut it on and off every day, but now I run it 24/7. It is only on its 2nd set of tubes.

I found that surplus, military grade tubes from Russia, work fine for my needs and are ultra-inexpensive.

I bought enough to last me, hopefully forever.

 

Diminishing returns are less diminishing that way.

Any time I can by used, on sale, open box, refurbished..., I do!

 

Sometimes, it's good to have a critical view though. And if there's one hobby that needs it, it's ours. The amount of crap that gets written over the years, proposed and suggested without one iota of credibility yet still gets a pass is truly mind boggling.

And if the hobby and the hobbyists haven't got it in them to challenge some of the stuff that comes their way and accept it wholesale, then more fool them.

 

God, is there enough popcorn...?!

 

When it comes to audiophilia, ignorance is bliss.

 

Hopefully, you won't trade it in for a "sweet spot" mass market solid state receiver at $500. Who really needs a separate power amp!?

I could be talked into selling my SLP-98. Better sweet spot!

This thread has run its course. There is no absolute sweet spot. It's a good question though because it revolves around what can be achieved for a given budget. It would be cool if we had a more active gear forum with serious audiophiles. No question there would be a discussion which lead to the "SH Forum ultimate $2,500 system" which a bunch of us could experience in our own rooms.

 

Have eight tube amplifier's, including, a vintage Scott 222C, integrated amp and a Restored Fisher 500C tube receiver. They range in power from a 3.9-Watt Decware Mini Torii single ended pentode to Rogue M-150 monoblock pair (counts as one amp). A couple of other Rogue amps, with KT88's and KT-120's. A larger Decware Torii Jr. with EL34's. Right now my latest "guest" power amp is a PrimaLuna Prologue Five running KT88's.

And the latest purchase is a back-up tube preamp, a Dynaco Pass 2.

I don't listen to the radio, so a receiver is not in any future plans.

For decoding DVD's and Blu-ray's, I have a couple of processors that feed into the system.

I like the SLP98, it is a well built and natural sounding pre-amp. Is yours the Carnival Red? I think this color looks perfect for this pre-amp. I have never seen the optional Anthracite finish. Which, I imagine, is a finish that someone would have to see in person to really appreciate.

I agree, that everything revolves around what one can do with a specific budget.

That Prologue Five is the cleanest sounding tube amp out of the whole batch. They run the KT-88's softly and I think that makes a big difference from a company like Rogue, which pushes them hard, for the most power.

With the ability to run the Altec A7's off of the 3.9-Watt Decware amp, the 36-Watt PrimaLuna is more than enough power to take the modified A7's to concert levels. My aging ears, can not abide by SS amplification on the A7's, so from there, it is tubes all the way.

I think that a high end audio forum is a good idea as is a HT oriented forum. The HT part is easy, but defining what is high end, as @Richard Austen, pointed out. To some, (inclusive of myself), 30k-50k speakers would be really high end, to others, merely ho-hum mid-fi.

Even finding common agreement on a $2,500 "ultimate" system is close to impossible. Some would spend more money on speakers (myself included) and others would prefer better sources and pre-amps. Although, I do think one could assemble a quite decent $2,500 system, if it was 100% digital or SS.

Still, there is certainly, room some high-end audio threads on this forum and other specialty treads, audio software, HT, etc...

 

Vertu collapsed in July, 2017

 

Good - because it was stupid.

 

Start one. Watch what happens.

D.D.

 

I agree but that is not what some people have implied in this thread - their implication that they bought a speaker and it's "as good as it gets" and it's nuts to spend more money.

Let's take your example - you've compared your system and your friend's system - but what If I put a $14,000 system together than is vastly better than your friend's - or forget better just one that you personally feel is much better. There is diminishing returns and then there is diminishing returns. I can tell you the same thing - that wow I have an X dollar system then I heard one that costs 5 times the price and not only is not a lot better - it is worse!

This is the problem with the entire X(better) argument because sound quality isn't a mathematical formula. You can spend $1k on a speaker that makes sound and measures well - you can spend $5k and get the same sound but has more bass and better treble and measures well - and $8k and $12k etc. But what if it is the $50k speaker that has the "gestalt experience" where everything comes together and gives you that jaw dropping experience that the $20k on down speakers never achieved?

Sure we can say it's not 50x better than the 1k model - you can point to measurements or something but if the $50k speakers gives you the band in the room, the dog has lifted, the guttural sensation, the goosebump factor and a new lease on your musical life experience and the lower end stuff just does not capture any of this - then how much is that "worth" to you?

 

Now there's an audiophile expression I had yet to hear...
I guess the 1k model lifts a Lhasa Apso but the 50k speakers hoist a Husky.



D.D.

 

Some components ARE better than others, no matter what someone thinks.

 

And sometimes less expensive components ARE better than more expensive ones.

 

Would you prefer a $50k SET/Horn system or a $150k system based on Magico speakers and expensive solid state amplifiers? I've met enough people who who would choose the $50k system every time.

I've heard expensive systems I wouldn't bother giving space to. Depending on your preferences, price is secondary.

 

True - but not generally true within the same manufacturer.

I can't think of any maker where their flagship product is worse than their entry level product.

I can think of products of different designs at lower prices - like I would take an Audio Note OTO at $3500 over probably any Solid State amplifier for $10,000. But I'd still take an Audio Note Jinro over the OTO any day of the week.

 

Not a fair comparison. At those levels, both will be magical.

 

That's what I'm talking about - forget the fog lifting - the stereo is so good it actually lifts your dog into party mode.

 

... And it becomes a matter of personal taste rather than pretty much anything else. But either option will almost certainly sound better than the $ 2500.00 system to the point where the question of "diminishing returns" becomes largely moot.

D.D.