Is it possible to make a new analogue format? What do you think about it? How?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by HDOM, Oct 26, 2018.

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  1. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    I think we should concentrate more on introducing new analogue recording studios.I'm sure they would be very popular with plenty of artists and with audiophile buyers.
     
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  2. mtrot

    mtrot Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tyler, TX
    How about the 8 inch size laserdisc? Those were made, but not many of them. How much high rez listening time could the 8 inch size accommodate?
     
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  3. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    I checked the Wikipedia page for laserdiscs (LD), and 8" laserdiscs could hold about 20 minutes of video at Constant Linear Velocity (CLV). I have a few of them, and they tended to be used for two basic purposes: music videos and catalogs. An 8" LD could hold two or three music videos on each side. I have two by Sheena Easton, and one by The J. Giles Band. When used for catalogs, the disc could hold hundreds of still images. I have an 8" LD catalog and each frame of the video holds a complete catalog page (when formatted as Constant Angular Velocity [CAV] like an LP/45, it can display crystal-clear freeze frames since each rotation of the disc contains one complete image).
     
  4. I wouldn't call SD composite NTSC or Pal video "crystal clear".
     
  5. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    I didn't use composite cables but the next step up (with red/blue/green video connections) and I got a bit clearer picture. Maybe "crystal clear" was a bit of an overestimate (its been a while since I've seen an LD) but I do remember it was much better than Standard Play VHS, especially if you paused or played the video in slow motion with a CAV disc.
     
  6. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    I've been thinking about making a new analog format. However, what if there were a way to revive an older format? Consider the following:
    • A customer walks into a music store. It is a new type of store that can provide you with music any format you choose.
    • He walks over to a kiosk and put in your order choosing the album and the album's format.
    • He decides to purchase Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band by The Beatles in the following format: Reel-To-Reel Tape in mono running at 15 inches per second with no noise reduction on Type II tape.
    • After placing his order, the cost is computed. It breaks down as follows (the prices are just for discussion):
      • Album Fee: $20
      • Tape Fee (for two tapes, needed to hold the entire album): $40
      • Preparation Fee: $20. This includes: Copying the album to the tape and preparing the packaging.
    • Once he places the order, the tape will be prepared and ready for pickup the next day.
    • The tape is made from a high-quality (192kbps/24 bit) digital file (copied from the original master tapes) in real time after the deck is properly set up.
    • At the same time the packaging for the tapes is prepared, including labels for the tape reels and the boxes.
    • When the tape is finished and checked, it is packaged and made ready for the customer.
    • The next day the customer picks up his tape.
    Would the above be possible? I remember at one time they were considering doing this with the compact cassette, where you could have a custom made to order tape.
     
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  7. Carl Swanson

    Carl Swanson Senior Member

    Too many formats!

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Leigh

    Leigh https://orf.media

    No. Just no. Ain't gonna happen. It's fun to think about but it's about as likely as the next US supercomputer being powered by vacuum tubes. LPs are the final analog format for consumers. And it's only being kept alive by crazy audiophiles and hipsters. We're dooomed. DOOOOOMED!!!
     
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  9. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    The only people who are gonna care about a new analog format, will still be frigntened off by whatever tea leaves they can read in it not being a more expensive version of the equipment Grandpa used to have. The talking point will be, "they're ruining analog!", and it'll never go over. Hipeters will spit their Sumatras all over their flannel shirts with disgust, and Used Record Store owners will shy away from it at all cost, for fear of losing cred with their peers. Big-city free paper editors will misread all the press releases, and send their music columnists out to mis-characterize, dumb-down and pop-culture-reference the information to death. The only talk show host who can get any mileage out of it will be Seth Meyers...but that will be after he ends up taking the late-late-late-night show, following the new Alex Baldwin Contractual Obligation Chat Podcast, only downloadable through Disney's new streaming service, in-between Boy Meets World Marathons.
     
  10. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    Bring back the Playtape!
     
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  11. If I had the dough, which unfortunately I don't, I'd buy it without thinking twice about it. I'd give the option for the tapes to be Dolby Spectral Noise Reduction encoded.
     
  12. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    They were great. Not quite as good as open reel, but much better than the cassette. Unfortunately, Elcaset didn't survive until Dolby C, Dolby S, HX Pro and metal tape came around - if it had, it would have easily given open reel decks a run for their money. My guess is they would have been difficult to tell apart in A/B comparisons.

    If Sony had just gotten it to market 2-3 years earlier, things might have been very different. It might have been able to establish itself to replace the dying 8-track, and less development might have gone into trying to make the Compact Cassette into a more audiophile-friendly format.

    Although in Sony's case, maybe that was for the best - the rise of Sony's own Walkman only came about because Elcaset failed, and it was the one-two punch of the Walkman and the Compact Disc that made Sony into the preeminent electronics company of the '80s.
     
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  13. AcidPunk15

    AcidPunk15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Brunswick, NJ
    I don't think there are enough people who buy vinyl to merit the creation of a new format or update an old format. By the way HD vinyl won't be AAA.
     
  14. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Seriously people! There is really no logical or marketable reason to market a new analog format. If it were cheap enough, your potential customer might be some recording artists. After that, maybe a few audiophiles with money to burn might be interested. But, there is no way the average consumer will adopt it. And, what is the goal here for audio quality? Pro analog quality is already the best it can be. Is the goal to have a more digital sound on tape or vinyl? People like vinyl because they don't want digital, and and high quality digital has been around for a long time now.

    A new analog format is a totally worthless pursuit.
     
  15. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Superior analog formats have existed, but failed due to a less convenient larger package. For vinyl, direct metal mastering would improve a format in existence. Records cut at 45 RPM, and not close to the label already exist.. when paired with metal mastering we have a fantastic analog format.

    If I designed an entirely new format, it would be a tape cartridge, 1/4 inch tape, metal formula, 3.75 ips, 4 track (A and B sides) slightly larger case than the standard audio cassette and thicker. It would be convenient, compact, but far superior to the old standard cassette. Commercial releases could include Dolby B, C or S, but also available without it. The frequency response would probably extend to 25kHz easily, perhaps -60 dB signal noise ratio A weighted, without Dolby. The nice thing about analog, the dynamic range extends to +8 dB transients without clipping, or "overs" so the music program can be at a higher average level without fidelity loss... and still produce the transients. Metal tape has a higher MOL before compression, good stuff!
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
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  16. HDOM

    HDOM Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Interesting :D
     
  17. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Rock 'n Roll !!!

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    That reminds me, I have some Laserdiscs that I have been meaning to transfer audio from, either to cd-r or tape. Probably will do this when we get "snow days"...
     
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  18. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    The key in my post is that the consumer chooses the options (which should allow just about every option possible*). The next customer might decide to just get a compact cassette with Type IV tape and Dolby B Noise reduction, and would pay less for it (maybe a total of $25)...but would get a better product than the mass-produced cassettes.

    *Including the unlikely option of ordering a set of shellac 78RPM records...although it might take an extra day.:biglaugh:
     
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  19. HDOM

    HDOM Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    I had heard these shellacs whit a horn grammophon, and it was real nostalgic:uhhuh:

    Maybe we should include the horn, in our imagination new analog machine :biglaugh:
     
  20. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    Well, to paraphrase the Carpenters: We can dream, can't we?
     
  21. HDOM

    HDOM Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Imagination is the key
     
  22. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    I think it is too soon to say that LPs/45s are the final analog format. If there is enough demand, a format will rise to meet it. Plus, there are ways to enhance the current LPs/45s while still allowing them to be used with existing equipment. I posted a video earlier about an LP that holds a total of 2 hours of music on one disc that will play on existing turntables as is. The extra playing time is the result of using technology to reduce the space between the grooves.
     
  23. HDOM

    HDOM Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Reel to reel too :-popcorn:
     
  24. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    There is no demand.

    If people wanted a better analog format than vinyl, cassette would be staging a revival. Carefully manufactured, using modern evaporated metal tape, Dolby S, HX Pro, modern head manufacturing technology (probably based on thin films or other technologies not available back in cassette's heyday) and normal or half-speed mastering, the cassette could easily best the fidelity available from most mass-produced vinyl, and with decks that cost less to produce than most essentially-bespoke high-end turntable / tonearm / cartridge/ preamp combos.

    That final generation of Dolby S-equipped tape decks were already capable of making virtually indistinguishable copies of LPs or CDs, and we've learned quite a bit about tape and magnetic recording since they shuffled off to the graveyard. Modern decks could also use subtle digital assists to control things like speed, head alignment and the like - a blizzard of DSP technologies could be deployed to analyze the signal and make adjustments back in the analog domain as-needed. You could probably also encode standard info about the recording itself, either on the tape realtime as part of the bias signal perhaps or overall characteristics of the tape itself, the deck it was recorded on and the settings in use via RFID chips or similar technologies.

    Again though, there's not enough demand to fund the engineering it would take to make this happen. There's barely enough demand to keep the manufacturers of turntables and carts solvent - in fact, Shure exited the cart business earlier this year.
     
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  25. Why not use a CD, DVD or Blu Ray? Durabys (developed by TDK) anti-scratches coating should be used and also a high output power laser so the amount of reflected laser light is also high and less amplification is needed to improve signal to noise ratio. Regarding noise reduction,why should a 50 something years old schememust be used like Dolby A o B? If I were to use an old dolby scheme that would be Dolby Spectral and let's not forget that even Spectral is 32 years old so something better could be developed, maybe Spectral could be tweaked to reduce noise even more. Or some old or forgoten system fromthe past like CBS' CX or Telefunken's TelCom which was very eficient.
    I think the disc could have 5" like a CD but a bit bigger ('though smaller than a 7" single) wouldn't hurt.
     
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