Is Liz Phair one of Rock's Greatest Living Tragedies?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by I333I, Mar 1, 2013.

  1. PhilBorder

    PhilBorder Senior Member

    Location:
    Sheboygan, WI
  2. drbryant

    drbryant Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    If it was commercial success she wanted, then it was such an utterly misguided attempt, it's sad. The only people who bought S/T were fans of her earlier work (a large segment of whom were female). Of course, having had their intelligence insulted with teen-pop and "sexy" pictures, they stayed away in droves from her next release; and her career was essentially over. Maybe it's not a "tragedy", because I am not sure that she really had the talent to sustain the quality of her first three albums over the course of decades. Besides, her career shift didn't hurt the reputation of her earlier albums - and there is still sufficient interest to merit release of a deluxe edition of Guyville.

    Also, like I said earlier, PJ Harvey and Fiona Apple have released two of the best albums of the last couple of years. Let's see if Liz has anything in the tank.

    Yeah, he did. There was no real explanation for that; even if you like teen pop (and I like it sometimes), there is no way that's an "A" album. Christgau, like many critics, enjoys being the contrarian sometimes - remember that he also gave the Stones Dirty Work an "A". Baffling.
     
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  3. But if you're gonna slam any artist for losing their integrity, there aren't many targets better than Phair. I don't particularly care that her music took a more commercial turn - nothing wrong with making money, indeed - but that she generally ditched the adult perspective and started coming off like a schoolgirl. A song like "Why Can't I" is generic teenygirl fluff no matter how many f-bombs you might stick in it, and junk like "HWC" plays like someone who doesn't have a clue trying to grasp at Phair's original bluntness. At least the aforementioned Martha Davis didn't make herself over as a pop tart when she and her band made a run for the money in the early '80s. And she succeeded too, which might tell you something.

    I took a look at that Pitchfork.com review for the first time in a while, and while the album isn't so godawful I'd give it a 0.0, I agree with most of what it says.
     
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  4. SoundAdvice

    SoundAdvice Senior Member

    Location:
    Vancouver
    The rights to EIG reverted back to her several years ago. ATO reissued it with some bonus material. I've seen both the cd and vinyl reissues in discount sections.

    Her 2003 album sold about 500,000. Just like the earlier albums. The 2005 and 2010 albums only sold a tiny fraction of that.
     
  5. A greater tragedy: Two Words: Jefferson Starship after Blows Against the Empire (which is a wonderful record) . Ok and Maybe Red Octopus...Maybe??. The rest are garbage sell out albums that I cannot listen to today. Grace and Paul and Marty went for the bigger brass ring. Can't blame them but it was a total BS easy pop production style sellout (no offensive to LA producers ) ;-)


    OY VEY.. I guess Paul and Marty couldn't even handle it by this point. But yes it is very catchy..along with a very cute Kim Catrell!

     
  6. I333I

    I333I Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ventura
    I find it weird that I, the "OP", am getting so many bizarre personal retorts regarding my question. Sure, the word "tragedy" was dramatic, but really, do you all think that I am crying in my pillow every night about this?!
    And where in the hell did any of you get my question and turn it into "idol worship"? So bizarre.
    The simple point that I was trying to make is that Liz Phair was a promising artist. She made it clear that she was interested in making money. This is fine, I love plenty of commercial artists, but her direction was so misguided it seemed that the first few albums were just flukes. It's fine that "she can do whatever she wants to do" too, as many of you have pointed out, but it's sad as a music lover that she chose to make crap like HWC instead of building upon the freshness of her first albums.
     
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  7. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    I have a slightly different take on Liz Phair -- and I'm a big fan, all the way through, so please bear with me. I think most of the people on the "tragedy" and "sell-out" side are assuming that Liz was a die-hard rocker, writing her songs in sweat and blood, pouring her soul out because she just HAD to ... and then she sold her soul to The Matrix, betrayed her fans and her own "true" self and ended up where she is today. I don't think it's nearly that romantic, and therefore not nearly that tragic an outcome. Simply put, I don't think Liz Phair is a t0-the-bone "rocker" -- I don't think she's an "Artist" with a capital "A." Now, she might disagree with me, and it might sound insulting that I'd say that, but it's just my two cents, so let me explain.

    I think Liz Phair is someone who CHOSE to be a musician, rather than someone who HAD to be a musician. Bruce Springsteen, from all evidence and from everything he's ever said about his childhood, HAD to become a musician -- it was that or die. He also "sold out" to a more commercial sound, but the complaints are more muted, because it WORKED and turned him into a mega-star. But he HAS to make music, and his career has taken an interesting path since his "sell out" (Born In The USA). Liz, on the other hand -- and again, in my opinion -- CHOSE to be a musician. She came from a well-off family, was well-educated, and could have done other things with her life. (I believe she was a graphic design major?) But she hung with a cool crowd of indie rockers (the "Guyville" in the title of her first album), she was naturally gifted at music, and she was brash, sarcastic, head-strong and outspoken. So she recorded some demos, became a phenom, and set the rock world on fire with her first album. It was the mid-90s, post-Nirvana and pre-Napster, and the record business was flush with cash to risk on someone like Liz.

    So now, with a classic debut album under her belt -- fueled by the self-mythologizing stories of it being a track-by-track response to a classic Stones album -- Liz was now a "rocker." To me, as someone who was on board in 1994, Liz's future troubles were already evident on the 1995 follow-up, Whip-Smart. Lyrical bluntness that was shocking and honest on Exile seemed more like, "Look at me, boys, I'm naughty and titillating!" on songs like "Chopsticks." She seemed to have used up her best songs on the double-LP debut, and now the candle burned a little less brightly. As Elvis Costello (and, I'm sure, many others) once said, you get 20 years to write your first album, and six months to write your second. But she continued to live her life, she got married, and she spent more time working on her third album. She worked with Scott Litt and REM a bit, and crafted whitechocolatespaceegg rather than just let it spill out of her. I happen to love it; it's my second-favorite of hers after Exile, and sometimes I think it might be BETTER than Exile. Yes, the rough edges are smoothed out, but she's still a force to be reckoned with, she's still speaking her mind, and it still sounds like her unique voice.

    But then it didn't sell -- or at least, it didn't build on Exile and Whip-Smart the way she (and Matador) hoped it would. Now she's moved to California, had a son -- a SON, folks, not a daughter! -- gotten divorced, and she's a "rocker" with a shaky career and no other prospects. She's not a Job Brion type, so she's not going to get producing gigs or score major films. She needs her albums to SELL to sustain the life she's set up for herself. So she decides to really go for it on the fourth album -- "it" meaning a slick, commercial album that will move units and generate hit singles. The album she turned in, produced by Michael Penn, was far from boring as someone said above (imo), and was a fairly natural-sounding progression from the maturity of WCSE. But Capitol rejected it, and urged her to work with the hitmakers of the moment, The Matrix. Liz thought, why not? They made Avril Lavigne a star, and she was basically being marketed as a mall-crowd Liz Phair. So she agrees, and The Matrix write a handful of faux-Phair, potty-mouthed but soulless catchy songs for Liz to sing. This time Capitol is pleased, and the Liz Phair album is unleashed on the world.

    For those who say she accomplished nothing with the self-titled fourth album, you're wrong. It did sell more than WCSE -- if it hadn't, there might never have BEEN a fifth or sixth album -- and "Why Can't I" was a moderate hit that (crucially for Liz's bank account) got placed in TV shows and on movie soundtracks. It didn't make her super-rich, but it gave her a footing to continue making records. But once again, the follow-up to a game-changing success -- Somebody's Miracle -- falls flat. That's putting it nicely, I'm afraid: Somebody's Miracle is a true dud, with no hits, negligible sales, and -- worst of all -- it's completely forgettable. I still found a few tracks to like, though -- "Got My Own Thing" is a jaunty track, "Why I Lie" is an interesting rocker, and "Table For One" is a pretty harrowing account of an alcoholic trying to straighten out despite all the forces working against her. Still, though, now Liz is completely screwed -- she's lost her indie fans, the "Why Can't I" crowd wasn't really invested in her, and she really has no loyalty to either crowd -- because, as I proposed at the top, she's not a capital-A "Artist," she's a person who found herself in the music biz who has a sharp mind but a limited skill set, and she just needs to make a LIVING -- forget about being a poet, being "true" to herself, honoring her "fans" or any of that crap. She needs to put food on the table.

    So she does what she can; she writes stuff for TV, and she tries to figure out how to be a "career" rocker when she has no real fan base left and doesn't have a fire burning inside her to constantly create. She continues to record, under the radar, and the stuff she comes up with is flatly rejected by Capitol -- earning Andy Slater her eternal hatred. So finally, in 2010, she finds an inner voice of sorts and unleashes Funstyle -- a self-made, self-released, bizarro set of tracks that includes comedy skits, spoken-word "songs," and (infamously) rapping. One blog review I remember was titled "Look At Me, Internet -- I've Set Myself On Fire." But I warmed up to Funstyle VERY quickly -- just look up the thread on this forum and see -- and I don't see it as career suicide at all (which is why, to answer the OP, I don't see her as a "tragedy"). To me, Funstyle is an updated version of the same Liz that made the Girlysound tapes and Exile In Guyville -- pissed, shooting from the hip, and flipping the bird at anyone who didn't like it. I think "Smoke" and "Bollywood" are two of her best songs -- and no, I don't mean that ironically or sarcastically. The only disappointment for me following Funstyle was that it seemed that Liz was going to be a loose cannon, firing off tracks on her website whenever she felt like it, and letting the chips fall where they may. Unfortunately, she's barely made a peep in almost three years.

    So yeah, I don't see her as a "living tragedy" -- I just don't think she ever was the mythical indie sex-rock-goddess her fans thought she was. The low-fi vibe of her first album tricked everyone, but she was just a whip-smart kid who had a knack for songwriting and didn't really know where to go with it, or how to make her unique skills a career-sustaining concern. She's recording again -- possibly with Ryan Adams -- and I sure hope it's great. She probably feels obligated to sound "indie" again if she has ANY chance at reviving the "Liz Phair" persona, but I'd take anything she puts out, as long as it's passionate and honest. "Tragedy" would be if she never releases another song and ends up in a trailer park; right now she's having a tough time of it, but there's still hope for her. Sorry for the length, but for some reason Liz Phair is one of those topics that gets me going.
     
  8. jupiter8

    jupiter8 Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ, USA
    she started out as somebody with a bunch of indie cred/buzz (whether it was deserved or not- I read more than one article at the time that complained that she was a rich poseur from the Chicago 'burbs") Then she started working to make teeny-bopper music as her 30s wound down and basically told her old fans to stick it if they didn't like it. When that no longer worked there was the inevitable revisiting of her first material and appeal to the nostalgia of the fans of her first records. So, she basically has had about the kind of career she probably should have. PS I like some of her "credible" songs and some of her schlock.
     
  9. Very Well written. I give you an A.
     
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  10. Roisin Dubh

    Roisin Dubh Active Member

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    I haven't given up on her, and I really never thought her "commercial" stuff was as horrid as many say. Just a case of an artist tired of struggling as a "media darling" and wanting to get paid. If that's selling out, then I guess she was willing to sacrifice a few drooling reviews for cold hard cash. I might have done the same, given how short-lived many musical careers are. Was it the direction I wanted her to take? No, not really. But I understand what would motivate an artist to make such a decision.
     
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  11. kinkling

    kinkling Forum Resident

    Nobody mentioned the bonus EP she put out with either the self-titled or Somebody's Miracle (I can't remember). Five tracks in her "old" style. When I heard "Jeremy Engle" I thought--'AHA! This is great! She can still do it anytime she wants. She obviously doesn't want to. Bummer.'
     
  12. tedg65

    tedg65 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Weymouth MA USA
    I don't know, I think I really need to see some more pics of her before I really make my mind up about her music...
     
  13. Please examine this thread again. You have gotten possibly 2 very slightly personal retorts out of 116 posts. OK you've gotten 3 now with this post. I you're this thin-skinned perhaps you should avoid posting on the internet.
     
  14. No Bull

    No Bull Forum Resident

    Location:
    Orlando Florida
    These were the tracks that the label kicked off her s/t record. these tracks were with Michael penn. They were replaced by The Matrix tracks.
     
  15. noname74

    noname74 Allegedly Canadian

    Location:
    .
    Well written and thoughtful post. I don't agree with all of it but it's nice to see someone thinking about Liz without talking about the 'white mesh' pictures.
     
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  16. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    The EP was called comeandgetit, and it accompanied the self-titled Liz Phair album. The songs are outtakes from what would have been the album before The Matrix stepped in. "Jeremy Engle," "Bouncers Conversation" and (especially) "Shallow Opportunities" are all great and worth hearing. The EP was a download for anyone who bought the LP album, but if you check eBay you can find a CD version of it every once in a while. Throw in the iTunes exclusive track "Insanity" and the fourth album could have been very, very different.
     
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  17. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    Thank you. Liz Phair in 1993/1994 was a kid just out of college, an effortlessly beautiful young girl who didn't really care about being beautiful but doesn't mind teasing you with her beauty -- in other words, exactly the kind of female that gives a lot of male rock journalists boners. This contributed to her early hype, but also added to her critical "downfall" -- some of these guys acted like she cheated on them, or broke up with them or something. If there's anything "tragic" to me in Liz's story, it's that she ever ended up in the white mesh top in the first place -- but part of her "deal with the devil" with the Matrix was that she had to be S-E-X-Y, so she agreed to objectify herself. It's a shame.
     
  18. noname74

    noname74 Allegedly Canadian

    Location:
    .
    IMO nothing ruined that album more than HWC. It was just so unnecessary....it was as if she felt she needed to top Flower.
     
  19. Many Sell out and sell sex At least in rock and roll imagery...

    Liz_Phair.jpg 41N40bKmcwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
     
  20. kevintomb

    kevintomb Forum Resident

    The early stuff is great, but the new stuff took some time to grow on me. I think we as fans of the "Tragically Lost" liz, are not able to move on into something different.

    Face it, to keep a career going as long as she has in this very fickle music world, she HAD to change. Doing the first album over and over would have us complaining about how she does the same forumula over year after year.

    What a lot miss, Liz has a great sense of humor over the last several years. Many of her newer songs are intentionally funny, whether we like them or not.

    Shes making fun of herself, shes having fun, shes still around. I like her, I like all of her music, just in different ways!!
     
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  21. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    Exactly. "Favorite" (as in, favorite underwear) was pretty gross, too.
     
  22. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    I think Liz herself explained her career best in the song "Can't Get Out Of What I'm Into" -- which was better than ALL of Somebody's Miracle but somehow ended up as a download-only bonus track:

    It's a steady job
    And it's the only thing that makes me money
    And it gives me something to laugh about
    'Cause my real life ain't f---in' funny
     
  23. While Flower is a lovely song that would be almost impossible to top, I think H.W.C. is fair to middling.
     
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  24. I333I

    I333I Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ventura
    What?! Okay...
     
  25. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Tragedy? Not in the slightest. Exile is the album that made everyone take notice. That album was a confluence of ideas, good collaborators, luck, and good timing. Unlike some, I don't hear an album that heralds an amazing new talent. I hear an album an album that reveals a new talent with an interesting new album.

    Subsequent albums sound like the same artist, but searching for repeated success in various straightjackets. Some are more successful than others.

    A lot of people don't like the self titled album and the Matrix connection. Personally, I think the best songs on that album are as good as anything she's done. Poppy? Sure. Did she pose for all kinds of cheesecake shots? Sure. And the inclusion of the putrid purile jingle HWC, Liz's idea entirely, shows that all she really wanted to be was a pop artist--she didn't sell out, she cashed in. Or tried to, anyway.

    I guess the point is that at no time did Liz Phair ever strike me as the artist of her generation. As a result, my expectations weren't that high.
     

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