Is movie dialogue getting harder to hear for you?

Then, this thread must be irrelevant to you.

tomhayes, Battlestar frustrates me as well. Seems, between the music, fx and the constant processing and correcting of the processing both from SciFi Network itself, and the compression/limiting from the cable company, the dialogue is harder to locate than Earth! Maybe someday I'll rent a DVD, and just pull down everything but the center channel, and figure out whether I'm watching the same series the producers think they're making...!

But again, DVD's are not my issue here, or any home video experience that I can control myself; it's what goes on in the movie theater sound system that's troubling to me. For instance: did anybody see The Golden Compass at the theater, and wonder why so many characters would rattle-out so much expository dialogue while walking, running from channel-to-channel in the mix, or starting their speech with significant information before the viewer would have a chance to catch a breath, see who's speaking, or to whom on the set they're delivering these crucial nuggets to? Maybe that is realistic character behavior, but just because a character is unaware that there is a reader (or an audience) following them, is no reason to make us burrow through distraction just to follow the story points!

 

Oh, I hate this, and it's not just action movies. For ex, this's a big problem I have with the reissue of GoodFellas; it was nice to get the movie on one disc (instead of the old flipper), but the music and sound effects are SO MUCH LOUDER than the dialogue that I have to ride the volume control- man, that's annoying!

 

Don't most receivers (or DVD players) have a "night mode" or similar feature that decreases the dynamic range so that dialog is brought up in volume closer to the explosions, gunshots, etc.?

 

They do but many only work with Dolby Digital and not DTS. I'd have to check if my Onkyo 805 can do that with Dolby True or DTS Master. I don't even know because I'd never use it, I doubt....? I'm gonna look it up just the same.

Again, I suggest folks experiment with raising the levels of their centre channels. That solution has minimized problems for me for a long time. I first encountered this problem back in the LD days.

 

Bang on topic: not that I've noticed yet. Some do get carried away with the explosions effects etc though.

You have to use a jack? What are you using over there, Klipschorns?

Maybe ol' Hitch thought she should be seen and not heard...? The times I've noticed that happening in vintage films was due to modern futzing, noise reduction etc, making the already limited sound so threadbare I practically had to keep a hand on the volume control and of course it still sounded nasty. No richness left at all, music both tubby and tinny, and wonky dialog. Ugh. Rather they leave the noise in and dump the crappy electronics so I can at least tolerate the sound... Usually dialog is quite up front.

And I'm guessin' that's not all you heard from 'em either.

 

Why doesn't historical audio production, movie or music, get the respect picture quality (sometimes) gets?

That was a bad one now you mention it, and what's more was called a "restoration."

Well yeah, exactly. I hear the dialog ok but they're really, really loud. It's not just the music, the effects are what stand out in my mind as being most likely to put the hurts in hertz.

fwiw I've taken some mild earplugs since the early '90s just in case. They've come in handy.

Delightful sound on that one.

"MAaaaaaaaaaa -rion. Madam Librar... -ian..."

 

Sorry for not being clearer, I have a man-servant, Jack, who makes these adjustments at my command....

 

I notice some movies (maybe two fifths) have the voices turned way down compared to all the other sounds. Then the others are allot better balanced.

 

There's your problem.

No wonder I really don't enjoy movies anymore.

I tried to explain this to my sister when she couldn't understand why I couldn't listen to the movie at low volume. The dialoge was buried under all the music and other noise.

I guess people want "lifelike", but what's the point if you can't hear the words? But, I guess it doesn't matter to the average teen when they are talking about the plot with their friends while in the theater.

 

Steve, with all due respect, I don't think this is true for every modern film being mixed nowadays.

I'm sure you're aware that all major films are mixed by three mixers (one each for dialogue, music, and effects), with the dialogue mixer being the lead for the session. They're very much aware that the dialogue is the single most important element in the mix. If you can't hear the words, you can't understand the story; if you can't understand the story, all is lost.

It's true that there are often fights -- or at least heated discussions -- between the dialogue, music, and effects mixers (and also the editors, plus the director), and there's also a sound supervisor who has a whole role in the process, too. Ultimately, it's down to the director, and sometimes, re-recording mixers are forced to do bad (or compromised) mixes by directors who don't want to follow their advice.

I've seen dozens and dozens of films and TV shows mixed over the years, and I can't ever recall seeing dialogue, music, and effects mixed at equal levels. In fact, I've often heard people at the session comment, "hey, pull that down a little bit -- I want to make sure we hear that line of dialogue." I know this is the primary goal of the Cinema Audio Society, among others.

What I think is true is that there's an overall trend in mixing to push the dynamic range too far. When you put a 96dB mix in a home, loud explosions might blow you out of the room, while you're straining to hear whispered conversations in quiet scenes. I think it's fair to say an average theater should be quieter than an average living room, so what might work in a mixing stage might be too "rangey" for a home theater.

Coincidentally, I just came home from a screening of Wanted, and thought it was a fantastic mix. Lotta ADR, but the dialogue was great, though this is a loud, loud film.

 

Anyone else struggle as much i as do to understand the dialogue in Broke Back Mountain?

 

I didn't see this one, or I would've commented earlier.

As far as I know, every film & TV mixing stage in town is calibrated for an 85dB reference level. I'm not sure if I'd call that "ear splitting," but I would say it's right at the tolerance I can stand.

For my little home studio, I always set it up a little lower, like about 82dB. That's well below the threshold of pain for me.

I've seen the engineers at Complete, Technicolor, WB, Todd-AO, and Ascent all set up to 85dB, so I think this is pretty much standard in the industry. I believe (but am not certain) that home video versions are pulled down a little bit more, relatively speaking. I can say for a fact that the home video QC people want to see dialog hit at least -15dBfs on the meter, and they'll kick back anything that goes above about -10dBfs. (I had them reject a master I did on Dances with Wolves once, so the stereo-only version did get peak-limited to -10; the surround version had peaks all the way to about -2dB.)

For others reading this thread: there's a good write-up on how to set up a system (home or pro) for an 85dB reference level on the Blue Sky website, and the files are free. You do need to get an SPL meter, but I think those are only about $30 from Radio Shack, when last I checked. (The older analog-meter unit is better than the more-expensive digital unit.)

I agree with Grant above that listening with headphones is problematic, since a modern feature mix isn't optimized for 2-channel playback, nor is it optimized for headphones. You could try playing back with the "Dolby Night" mode, which should squash the dynamic range a little bit.

 

Yes, the wall of noise...

 

Actually, I wasn't saying that I listen to MOVIES in headphones, I was saying I spend a lot of time under the cans at my workstation, and on-air, and have for the past 30 years. And so I'm used to having the sounds close to me where I can mentally focus on them better...and so when I'm in the theater I'm at an automatic disadvantage.

 

1945? I had to do this for the Assasination of Jesse James when I rented it recently!

 

YES! For me it's a combination of how modern soundtracks are mixed, and my own high-end hearing loss.

 

What were the three tracks? Music, effects, and dialogue? Makes it sound so simple, doesn't it? The impressive thing is, they did it with knobs, meters, and ears. No Pro Tools.

Is that an early RCA console? I love the "theatre organ" look. Now THAT'S what I call styling!

 

I have this problem as well. I keep the subtitles on if they have them, but only in English.

 

Yeah, I find the dialogue too quiet. Also we often stick the compressor (or limiter) function of the AV amp on to compensate for the overdoing of the dynamics too. Increased dynamic range in cinema is often not used for the benefit of the listener/viewer IMHO.

 

You need better speakers or as recommended in one of the magazines I get, crank the center up by 2db.

Speakers however play a big part. I found with the JBLs I owned dialogue was sometimes hard to understand. I bought an entirely new system consisting of Klipsch Reference speakers and the clarity improved dramatically. Could also be that you need sound reinforcement in your room to reduce sound reflections which would clear up the sound a lot.

I never had an issue with Adams or Galatica.

BTW, I'm 56 so I'm no kid with perfect hearing.