Is there a loss in fidelity when a high-res file is cut to vinyl?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by rischa, Oct 24, 2014.

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  1. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    I don't have SACD or high-res digital playback capability in my system, but I know that some of my vinyl is cut from the same digital masters used for high resolution downloads. So my question is, in general, is there a loss in fidelity when a high-res digital file is cut to vinyl? That is, when a high-resolution master is made for download or SACD, but that same file is also used to cut a record, would the vinyl version loose fidelity against the digital file (assuming, of course, that the listener's vinyl rig and dac are both capable of reproducing their source to a high standard of fidelity)?

    The reason I ask is that I was talking hifi with one of my professors and he asked if I did SACD. As a joke I said that my turntable is my SACD player, since some of my vinyl, like the few BN 75th anniversary LP's I've picked up, are cut from high-resolution digital files. It was a joke, but I've been thinking there would be some logic there if (and only if) there isn't a loss in fidelity when playing the digitally sourced vinyl. But since I don't do high-res digital myself, I was hoping some of you who do have experience with both formats could clue me in.
     
  2. Tyler Eaves

    Tyler Eaves Forum Resident

    Location:
    Greenville, NC
    This is a very complicated issue. The noise floor will certainly be quite a bit higher.

    The one thing that can probably be said for (nearly) sure is that vinyl will sound better cut from high-rez than from 16/44.1 (which happens more often than you'd think or like).
     
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  3. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    Absolutely. Using Dexter Gordon's GO as an example, there is an increase in quality going from CD > BN 75th high-res sourced vinyl > MM AAA vinyl. I'm curious, though, if there is difference in SQ between the BN 75th GO and its high resolution download counterpart, or really if, in general, there is a difference in quality between any high resolution download and vinyl sourced form the same file.

    I hadn't considered noise floor. That is a good point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  4. BuddhaBob

    BuddhaBob Forum Resident

    Location:
    Erie, PA, USA
    The noise floor and perhaps some centering of bass.
     
  5. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    On the hi-res carrier, you have the original source. On the LP, it's been through the DAC and mastering chain to the cutter head, to the lacquer, through three generations of the electro-plating process and stamped onto the vinyl.

    The LP contains an imperfect replica of the output from the hi-res source used in mastering.

    Whether it constitutes significant loss is up to the listener.

    Of course, the DAC used for the LP mastering can make the LP superior to hi-res playback on a subjectively lesser DAC.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
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  6. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    Good points, thanks.
     
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  7. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    There is a loss of fidelity when anything is cut to vinyl.
     
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  8. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    Another good point, though the same could be said for digitization. I suppose there is a loss in fidelity with every step away from the master tape you take, so going from tape to digital to vinyl would be worse than going from tape straight to vinyl or tape straight to digital (all other things being equal, of course).
     
  9. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    Mal, you listed most things, but you forgot the part of the equation that will give the MOST difference in sound: the mastering/cutting engineer's work.
     
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  10. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Agreed, the mastering will make or break the end result.
     
  11. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    So all other things being equal, the vinyl could come out better than the digital file if the mastering and cutting were stellar? I wonder how often this is actually the case? I hate the idea of a digital download because I prefer to have a physical disc, but I guess I'll have to move into the 21st century one of these days and get a good DAC and see for myself. If nothing else, I can rip my vinyl to 24/192 and play it on my secondary system which only does redbook.
     
  12. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    Theoretically, yes - though the digital step would incur the least amount of fidelity loss, compared against analog tape or the various steps to vinyl.
     
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  13. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    If the original hi-res mastering was less than ideal, the overall sound could be improved in vinyl mastering but it will still have lost some fine detail. That is to say, although the LP may sound subjectively better next to the unaltered hi-res, if you could tweak the hi-res playback to achieve the same overall sound as the vinyl playback, then the hi-res playback would be a higher fidelity presentation than the vinyl.
     
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  14. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Of course there is also a tremendous difference between vinyl playback and vinyl playback, and it´s never correct.
     
  15. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    It depends if by "fidelity" you mean numbers or sound.

    By the numbers, vinyl generally just can't reproduce very high frequencies in real life from actual records. IIRC, some quad system(s) relied on ultrasonic frequencies for encoding and failed because it didn't work well. Actual pressed records with actual styli had performance limitations.

    http://www.channld.com/vinylanalysis1.html
    has some interesting data, I *think* they are sampling a vinyl record and showing super high frequencies, but if that is the case I am skeptical it is not spuriae.

    There are also losses in fidelity as far as wow-and-flutter, inner groove distortion, distortion in general, signal-to-noise as noted before,* clicks and pops and ticks etc etc blah blah blah.

    Some folks may chime in and say that vinyl SOUNDS better. However, in your stipulation "from a high resolution file" I would argue that "analog vinyl magic sound" can't really apply in that case unless it is euphonious distortion, which is not fidelity.

    I wish there would be more true comparisons done, maybe demos at audio shows. Same original event captured to analog, DSD, PCM, and compare playback on the corresponding media. I have heard PCM 44 vs 96 comparisons from supposedly the same mastering, but I've never heard.

    P.S. I reject the idea of the file being "improved" in the vinyl mastering stage, that is not "fidelity." "Fidelity" would be trying to get the true sound out, not monkeying with it. File --> DAC is simply a shorter chain than file --> DAC --> mastering --> cutting --> stamping --> rotating platter with imperfect speed --> electromechanical transduction (i.e. cartridge/stylus/tonearm). Could the result be "sweeter"? Yes, but many people prefer recordings played back with the LOUDNESS or BBE or EQ buttons on...that is not FIDELITY. An all-analog chain could be "preserving" some kind of sound nuance which gets killed in the digital system, "overcoming" the long playback chain. But then we have to start discussing the quality of each of those steps, and how good it really sounds at what price point.


    *although in the Audio Asylum there was a post with some real-looking data showing that in some frequency region, vinyl was actually quieter than CD. Not sure anyone else ever showed such a finding.
     
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  16. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    I think the oft cited "centering of bass" is usually a GOOD thing. Not sure where they mono the bass from, probably 100-150hz or something, but it makes the bass have significantly more punch to me. When mixing digitally, Ill do it anyway although its obviously not needed for a digital only release. Ill take more punch any day over more bass.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
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  17. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Just as there is as soon as a analog signal hits a converter, which it will do multiple times on its way from studio to you. Horses for courses.
     
  18. MadMelMon

    MadMelMon Forum Resident

    Agreed that, unless it's some 4MWB CD sourced train wreck, the main hurdle is the mastering.

    You also might want to think about what fidelity means to you personally. If you mean faithful to the original master, then digital can alter that result somewhat. I see the slight distancing that digital adds as another change in the original sound which, if the sound wasn't all that great to begin with, I'm perfectly OK with. I'm all for digit remixing and remastering, provided doesn't alter/"fix" the familiar version (no re-recording guitar parts, or using the "right" vocal take when the "wrong" one is the one people are used to, etc.)

    I got the Led Zeppelin I reissue, which general consensus says is cut from hi-res digital. I can hear a slight "distance" that tells me it's digital. But compared to my OG, it's almost a totally different album, in a good way...it doesn't "fix" anything except the muddiness of my OG. I only bought LZ I because the cover of my OG was trashed, but now I'm seriously considering buying the rest (although I can't imagine the Bob Ludwig Houses of the Holy being topped.)
     
  19. simon-wagstaff

    simon-wagstaff Forum Resident

    A turntable is a rotating distortion generator! :) I can appreciate the potential benefits of an all analogue signal chain to the laquer cutting head. If it's been digitized at 24/96 or better/higher might as well listen to the digital file. Otherwise you are listening to "whatever it is the makes vinyl sound good" but not the sound of the master tapes, as transferred. I am not convinced that digital at higher sampling rates have a "sound" and have never been able to compare the two.

    BTW, currentlt listening to the hi rez of Houses ofthe Holy. Wow!
     
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