Is there such a thing as being "objective" when it comes to music?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DK Pete, Feb 20, 2017.

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  1. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    I've been having this debate with someone on another forum; it seems no matter which way I turn, it all seems turn back to my own subjectivity. Even if I'm saying, I prefer A or B but I can understand why others would feel differently...it still, in the and, becomes a subjective observation on my part.

    Your thoughts?
     
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  2. eric777

    eric777 Astral Projectionist

    I think it can be viewed objectively ;however, more often then not it will be subjective. I can hear when a musician has talent but that still doesn't mean I will enjoy what hear.
     
  3. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    Only if you are making statements like 'this song is in a major key' or uncontroversial descriptive things like that.
     
  4. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    Hi Tom.
     
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  5. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    ..but supposing you said, "this musician has talent even though I don't like him". Isn't that an objective statement? Or is the very fact that you state he has talent turn it right around into subjectivity??
     
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  6. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    ...but that's being factual, no? The key mode of a piece of music isn't up for opinionated discussion....
     
  7. BeatleJay

    BeatleJay Active Member

    I don't think so honestly. Music is personal and what one person loves and deems high art another will absolutely hate. I don't think there's really anything truly objective about music outside of the genuinely scientific aspects of it.
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Another forum? You're dead to me!
     
  9. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
  10. vince

    vince Stan Ricker's son-in-law

    A wiser person than me once said:
    "There's no accounting for taste!"
     
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  11. Gramps Tom

    Gramps Tom Forum Resident

    Top of mind, I believe it's both. The measures differ for everyone according to their tastes.

    For example, guitars can be out-of-tune. Timing can be a little off. Vocals can be off-pitch. Some fans like it to some extent, and some will not. I am a fan of both. YMMV.

    EXAMPLES: (Not meant to be negative-Just to show my thoughts via examples.)

    IMO, one of the finest written, engineered, arranged, produced, and performed Pop/Rock tracks is LEARNING TO FLY by Tom Petty/Heartbreakers. Sound-performance-production-arrangement-engineering-timing=all perfect. Admired by millions...
    To me, this is OBJECTIVE admiration. It can also be SUBJECTIVE (it is for me, as I love the song by every criteria I can think of
    .)

    IMO, an example of the opposite is the Stones' 1975-LA Forum live set. Throughout most (maybe all of) the set, Mick's singing out-of-time & synch. Unwatchable and unlistenable to me, yet, also adored by millions.

    This fails OBJECTIVELY. IMO, the only possible way this set can be enjoyed is SUBJECTIVELY by a fan. (Emotional connection or a completist. A fan who can overlook the negative aspects, and enjoy the positives.)

    In reality, Pop/Rock's attractiveness is centered around some imperfection that can be objectively measured while subjectively enjoyed. (Energy, audience engagement, sonics, production,....)

    I could be way-off here, yet I believe Classical music seems to be MUCH more OBJECTIVELY measured to several standards:

    The Composer's vision of a completed work
    Period Instrumentation
    Period Politics
    Period Audience
    And more....

    THEN, add:

    The Conductor's philosophies and vision
    The Audience
    Modern Concert Venues
    Abilities of the performing orchestra
    Budget
    And more......

    Great discussion, Pete. Hope all's well in your world.

    GT
     
  12. Chemguy

    Chemguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Western Canada
    Wouldn't want it any other way....when it comes to art.
     
  13. eric777

    eric777 Astral Projectionist

    Yeah, that is what I meant. There are plenty of bands that I will acknowledge as having talent even though I don't like the music.
     
  14. the sands

    the sands Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    I don't think so. Music is emotions and thoughts and ideas, not facts. Maybe a music professor can say whether it is good craftsmanship, but what use is it if you don't like the music.
     
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  15. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Sure, you can approach music objectively. You can understand and examine it's history, what has influenced what, what other players, musicians, fans, critics, etc. have identified as significant milestones in the development of any an all styles, genres, subgenres. You can objectively understand what's going on in the music -- the harmony, the melody, the rhythm, what the creators intended, if it's executed as intended, how it is working to achieve and effect on audiences, etc. And that doesn't necessarily mean you wind up preferring, enjoying or having an emotional connection to all the stuff you learn, know, become exposed to. But you can step outside your personal tastes and emotional responses to study and understand it, same as you can with any art -- painting, literature, drama, whatever. I don't see why a person can't have both a set of personal, emotional responses to music and an objective understanding of the music and the context of it's making and impact.
     
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  16. lightbulb

    lightbulb Not the Brightest of the Bunch

    Location:
    Smogville CA USA
    Complete "objectivity" in evaluating music is dependent upon ability to quantify comparable factors, that are strong variables in determining value - such as:
    1. ___________
    2. ___________
    3. ___________

    Umm, give me time to think of any factors...
     
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  17. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    I don't particularly like Tom Petty's Learning to Fly.


    [​IMG]
    :hide:
     
  18. I can objectively say that Meet The Beatles was released in the year 1964. Other than quantitative and verifiable statements of this nature, it's all subjective. There is no such thing as an objective statement of the quality of any music.
     
  19. vince

    vince Stan Ricker's son-in-law

     
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  20. vamborules

    vamborules Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT
    I don't know, I've seen plenty of disagreements about what key a particular song might be in. That is definitely something that gets debated.
     
  21. Rasputin

    Rasputin Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    The first part is false.
     
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  22. Gramps Tom

    Gramps Tom Forum Resident

    Hi, Pete.
     
  23. the sands

    the sands Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    First part?
     
  24. Rasputin

    Rasputin Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    Sorry, 2nd sentence...
     
  25. The first part "I don't think so" is true, unless the sands is lying. I don't think he's lying.
     
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