Is your AVR digitizing your analogue signals? It probably is!

Some AVRs specifically tout analog bass management. It's called out specifically in the spec sheet for my Sony DA4ES.

 

So no digitizing of analog input signals should be done.

 

Some interesting stuff i will have to research my own AVR more thoroughly in the wake of a few terms i didnt know before. I get the reasons people may prefer it ADC DAC with room eq and bass management etc and it all comes down to preference of course but for me its unacceptable to have anything digital in the chain (including digitally mastered vinyl if i can avoid it). My goal with vinyl is to get it to sound as close to what went into the mic when it was recorded (i really like a live in the studio sound) and i personally cant see how that is possible with any ADC DAC going on. Digitally recorded or digitally mastered vinyl i can see as being affected less by ADC DAC however i believe the less converting of the signal the better and the closer to the source the music will be that comes out of the speaker. So if it has to be converted for mastering/remastering or if it was recorded digitally it all comes out of the amp and into the speaker as analogue and i believe the less messing with the state of the signal the better. I am not saying a high quality ADC DAC with all the processing would sound bad im sure it sounds great (ive never heard it) and offer a different flavour to that of an SACD or Hi Res file. I am just trying to make newcomers to vinyl and analogue aware of what their AVR is or might be doing to their TT signal and if they have any sort of ideas about vinyl like i do they would for sure want to know it because i didnt know this early on and i wish i had as it would have saved me a step in building my system.

 

Not to offend the AVR crowd but you are making a bunch of compromises with sound quality with an AVR. Digitizing the the analog signal is minor, even a pure direct mode sounds far different than a decent line stage and and amp.

 

This is highly dependent on the AVR, and one cannot make a blanket statement on amp or receiver quality. Some yeah, others no.

I have a half dozen older amps, and receivers, and two AVRs. I know what they sound like.

 

Yes, nothing is absolute. There could very well be some amazing AVR's that have amazing sound.



But apples to apples, a $2,000 to $5,000 two channel amp is going to be much, much better for playing records than an AVR at the same price point. From what I can tell the build priority for an AVR is the video and signal processing, accommodating multiple HDMI inputs, room equalization, multi zone management and whatever software is required to make all this stuff work. It's all well and good but it's not the build priority of a similarly priced two channel amp. I'm certainly not aware of an AVR that claims point to point wiring, SET amplification or NOS tubes. They are two vastly different approaches and both make compromises to hit a price point.

My only point is this, if you are going to get OCD about the purity of your analog signal, an AVR is giving you many features that are not assisting in that chain and isn't the best match for that job. Much like playing Call of Duty through a Two Ch. stereo isn't the best option.

 

What are those crazy-but-intriguing speakers?

 

They usually don't output analog signals through the digital output even though if they digitize those. I think it has something to do with copyrights and such.

That's a fairly old AVR. Most of modern-day AVRs do all signal processing in digital domain because accurate results are possible to achieve with far less money. Of course some exceptions can exist.

You are already compromising the sound with your room acoustics if they aren't near perfect. Also the gear (especially speakers) affect the overall sound a lot, lot more than a transparent ADC-DAC. If the AVR has a good room correction, closer to the source sound could be achieved with it enabled rather than it disabled.

 

I realize that, but without a separate listening room, I'm forced to use my HT AVR in my living room. I've thought about buying a separate amp for vinyl, but then I'd need an extra set of speakers as well, unless I wanted to swap the speakers out between the AVR and amp every time I play vinyl.

 

I don't think this is true. I had a DA4ES for many years, and I just took a look at the manual to double check. The only mention in the manual is that you can set it to turn off all digital circuits while in Analog Direct. The LFE subwoofer channel is shut off too. You can tell by looking at the front panel and see which speaker icons are lit up while in Analog Direct. I also have a newer DA4400ES that is the same way. The only way to have subwoofer output while using the Phono input is by setting it to Auto Decode, which I believe is doing an ADC conversion. Now, this never bothered me because my system sounded better with the subwoofer than without, so I thought the trade off was worth it. I recently "upgraded" to a vintage ES 2 channel setup and it sounds better in every way. I have it integrated with my AVR so that the AVR handles subwoofer processing and nothing else while listening to 2 channel music. It's a neat setup. It took some creative wiring to make the 2 systems work together considering my vintage preamp doesn't have a true HT bypass feature (TA-E77ESD), but it's all working and sounding great for movies and music

 

McIntosh. They have a few expensive speakers that are heavy with tweeters.

 

And there is nothing wrong with that, it all just a question of how you use your equipment and what you need it to do. A compromise isn't inherently a bad thing.

When I went through this process I found I was using less and less of the functions of my AVR as I was listening to more records. When I switched the AVR for a line stage I just went directly from the video source to the TV with an HDMI and ran a digital outs to DAC with multiple inputs. The dialog from video sounded a little hot, I think that is because the audio coming from cable box is pretty compressed and you can hear more of that issue when you drop the AVR. For me, the improvement in music more than made up for it. I didn't miss surround sound at all and the biggest challenge was training the wife on how to change the input on the DAC. Including having to explain what a DAC is.

Honestly I think it is interesting how some people get weird about digital anything being involved with records. It's not that big of a deal and if someone feels differently, it's time to rethink the AVR.

 

Last fall I replaced a Marantz 6.1 SR5200 with a newer Marantz 7.1 SR6011.

With the SR5200 I was using a Hagerman Bugle Pro phono pre-amp, and records nearly always sounded amazing. The left front amplifier channel started having some noise problems (with all inputs, not just records), so I bought a newer AVR with a built in phono preamp, and it just isn't the same. Records with a lot of midrange sound pinched, and I haven't been able to do a decent needledrop from the "analog" outputs - looking at the incoming wave form there's obviously some limiting going on. I've been assuming the receiver was digitizing the analog signal. Most likely that is the case, after reading this thread.

I've spent about 9 months trying to get used to it, and I think that's enough. I think my best bet is to get the older Marantz fixed and back in service.

 

Why don't you use the Hagerman with your new Marantz? Just because it has an internal phono doesn't mean you have to use it.

 

I'll just throw out there that I used an Outlaw 950 preamp with theater and two channel and it really sounded great. I replaced the Outlaw with an Emotiva... supposedly it too has an all analog path, but it didnt sound as great in two channel. I now run a little tube two channel pre with analog and it sounds ok, not as good as the Outlaw. I bought a Marantz 6011 that I'm planning to just use for theater and try some two channel pres. So I guess what I'm sharing is, if you have to compromise, the Outlaw really sounded nice.

Now to find a great two channel pre for dirt cheap... sorta like finding a Ferrari for dirt cheap.

 

I go straight through a phono preamp into an A/D converter when I'm doing needledrops.

 

Same here. Out of curiosity because of this thread I hooked up the table to my Yamaha RX -V2090. This AVR is all analog in, no digital. But it does have a few DSP effects and a tone by-pass option.

 

There is no reason for phono->tape out to be digitized, the likely place it would occur is after the output of the preamp input switching and before amplification, where features of your receiver such as 2.0->5.1 distribution can take place. If you can set individual levels of speakers, individual time delays of speakers, crossover freqencies of speakers, than that is going to be DSP for the speakers that are affected.

Here's my Yamaha receiver's service menu, which has many test configurations of the bypassable DSP, you can see that 2ch analog is possible


Note that when it is engaged, the 2ch DAC is a 24 bit 128x oversampling 96kHz sigma-delta converter with THD+N of -100dB, SNR of 120dB, bandwidth is 0Hz (+/-0.01dB) to 40kHz (-0.3dB), filter ripple of +/- 0.005dB. It's a bit better specs than any turntable.

To determine if DSP engaged or not in a particular mode, you can overdrive the ADC into clipping and observe the flat top distortion on oscilloscope, vs the bypass mode. Both may clip the amp stage first though, not recommended with speakers hooked up.

 

I tried that, but it didn't make much difference. I'll give it one more try.

 

Unfortunately, the right Dolby processor died on my Yamaha RX-V1 and parts are not available. Pretty sure the cheap Harmon Kardon I picked up so I'd have something to listen to probably does not have an all analog feature. But that's ok, because my upstairs turntable is not repairable, either.

 

Fingers crossed as a few of my components are thrift based. If I get a year out of my Yamaha I'll be happy. So many choices in the new market I wouldn't know where to start and I have nothing close to me for auditions... Ok now to go see if I actually have any thing pre-digital to spin

 

I would agree with this. I've had quite a few AVRs (Pioneer, Onkyo and Denon) used as prepros and found that using a 2 channel preamp with HT Bypass was the best for stereo music. The exception is that since adding the Emotiva XMC-1 to my system the SQ with stereo music is excellent. No more need for a 2 channel preamp with HT Bypass .

 

Here's further clarification that phono to tape out cannot possibly go digital (Yamaha) - follow the green line:

 

I may also try using the Direct and Pure Direct modes to hear if that makes a difference.

 

Oh yes, it most certainly makes a difference. A good one unless you are really looking for sound to come out of all the speakers.