Is Your CD Player/Changer Too 'Hot'?

The tonearm hopping should not be happening and volume isn't the issue. Something is not set up correctly. I would bet that the turntable is not properly leveled and that the tracking force should go up. Woofer flapping also indicates a probable tonearm/cartridge mismatch. I've got that cartridge by the way. Didn't seem to have an unusually hot output. I also had the turntable you've got. I know it's not the most solid design I've encountered. I check and see if the table is level and if there's a feedback loop to the speakers.

 

The previous cart - an Ortofon from that era - had a lower output and I could crank it. Problem was, 20 years and a lot of use(mainly my Dad's) took its toll.


Currently, my right speaker is about 4'(1.5m) from my rack, and left speaker, 6'(1.9m) from the rack. So I think we can rule out proximity.


Table is on top of the Sony CD changer(all four feet!) on top of rack. There is no wobble of components or excessive sway of the rack, and all my tone/eq controls are flat or switched out.


This table has only typical counter-weight adjustment, no anti-skate for calibrating with a blank record. Like I said, Ortofon's only issue was wear - it tracked well and you could crank it - even with setup in the prior paragraph.

 

I've been looking at my specs for my modest system and how it's connected.

Onkyo C7030 cd player------RCA output level and impedance 2.0V (rms) 600 ohms
Onkyo TX-8255 receiver----RCA (no optical or coaxial imputs) input sensitivity 150 mV/50k ohms

Seems to be pretty typical.

However, if I had a receiver with optical input...my cd player's optical output is 0.5V p-p/75 ohms. I'd use that for sure.

I don't really hear any bad sound from ouput/input discrepancies...so...why would Onkyo mismatch their components so badly...or are there some sort of 'stop gaps' built in to match these somehow ?

I'm new to this....so my understanding is a bit lacking. Am I OK with my setup ? When I can afford it...assuming I keep my cd player...should my new receiver need to have an imput sensitivity of 500 mV..and/or have an optical input to closer match my cd optical output ?

Dang....

 

I've been using Harrison 6db Attenuators for about 4 years w/my Audio Research SP-16 and Oppo 83SE. At the low end the SP-16 moves up very quickly in volume. This is a well known quirk in the SP-16 design. The Attenuators give me a wider range of volume at the lower end w/no degradation of sound. From what I've heard you can send the Sp-16 to ARC and they will adjust the problem.

 

They make the receiver with that sensitivity so it is compatible with vintage equipment, which used to have much lower voltage outputs. Now the standard is much higher so this situation is common.

If the volume pot on the receiver is before the 1st amplification stage then the worst that will happen is you will get more noise and have a very sensitive volume pot that reaches maximum volume around 9 O'Clock. If you attenuate the signal before it goes into the receiver than you will have a more useable volume control with more range. If there is an amplification or input stage before the volume pot, then you can get input overload which No-Remasters detailed in his 1st post. Either way, you are better off using attenuators imo.

So there are 2 possible issues with too much gain

1. More noise and distortion. If you take a 2V signal and amplify it to 20V then attenuate it back to 2V the resulting signal will have the noise and distortion of that 20 dB of amplification stage unnecessarily.

2. Overload (clip) an input stage as No-Remasters detailed.

The funny thing is in a fairly efficient system you are rarely putting out more than a few volts to your speakers so many systems have hugely excessive gain.

 

All of my sources seem to have similar output, whether CDP, DAC, tuner, RTR, phono pre etc. The big problem I have at the moment is that my CJ PV-12 pre is too "hot" for the MV-45 power amp from the same company. Different generations of product and some design philosophy evolution in the period between no doubt. It was never a real issue when I was running less efficient speakers, but when I recently went to Reference 3A mm de Capo i it reared its head in a big way. 8 o'clock on the gain and I almost need to leave the room, 9 o'clock and it is really loud. I'm going with some of the Harrison attenuators in between to tame things, though whether to go with 6 or 12 db I'm not sure. Any suggestions?

 

The optical has it. 0.5V per ch is where I had my RCA variable outs on my Sony Changer. Even Death Magnetic sounds better on my system now! lol


The only question: Where can you find optical cables for these players??

 

I'd start with 6dB, then swap for 12 later if necessary.

 

Thanks. I wasn't really sure how db and voltage play out together in this instance. 6 db really is considerable when you come down to it. Now that I think of it I was happy with how it worked out with 86 db efficiency speakers and I've added perhaps 6 db to that. the 6 db attenuation would just take me back to where I was previously. *doh* (smacks forehead).

 

This calculator at Crown Amps might be useful.

http://www.crownaudio.com/db-volts.htm

Not sure of the correlation myself. I just like how the pads have improved my sound. And over-atten. is better(safer) than under-atten.

 

That calculator is really handy, I've bookmarked it. I get 9.9 db attenuation being required, just over half-way between the 6 and 12db options. Which way to go? I'm thinking that should I end up with a cart/SUT/phono pre combination on the lower output side sometime maybe the 6 db would be enough?

 

6 dB is cutting your voltage in half, which actually isn't very much attenuation... if your volume knob doesn't go past 9 o'clock I would go with 12 dB.

 

I was just thinking that when I was running 86 db efficient speakers (now 92 db) on the same pre/power combination and would occasionally run a lower output MM cart I would sometimes get up around 12 o'clock without it getting blindly loud, something in my experience rare with any receiver, integrated or pre/amp combo I've run. Most of the time my phono pre comes up with almost identical output to my CDP and tuner, but with a couple of carts not so much. I'd hate to find myself running out of steam, but maybe it wouldn't happen.

When I read people making statements like "I listen with the volume at 3 o'clock" and such I've always been baffled as with any set up I've ever had it would be nothing but distorted noise and probably blown tweeters or a fuse or two.

 

I couldn't imagine having my volume at 3 o'clock either.

 

Ever go near the control tent/platform/booth/back of a truck etc at a concert?

All the mains amps knobs are FULLY clockwise! lol All gain staging is done early in the chain before it hits the amps.

Remember, in the analog realm, most 'volume' knobs are just attenuators - faucets - holding back the full power of the death star of thy choosing.

Sending a over-gained, square-topped wave signal through the chain to a house amp set at 9 or 10 o'clock is not a pretty picture. lol BTW that's why these hot modern CDs drive us tech-types cuckoo: I'm shuffling Joel & Jovi the other day with the volume at 11:00, and then I throw in Elephunk, by the Peas. I have to pull it back to 9:00! to match the original CDs by those others!

And yes there was clipping - not in my receiver - on that Elephunk. Sad.

Turn up your knobs - get them out of your signals way!

 

I now have a pair of the Harrison Labs -3db attenuators on the way.
My amp has an input sensitivity of 1.0 V, so maybe should have got the -6db set, but wasn't sure how much to try really.
I just want to experiment, to see what it's all about.

 

Absolutely. I fulfilled through Parts Express, and it looks like their exchange policy should be good, in care.

 

Thanks for your replies guys.

Since the majority of the cd's I play are the old masters that aren't NEARLY as loud as modern ones...I don't have any problem with turning my volume knob up to 12 o'clock high for optimal crankiness. My amplifier has 50wRMS..so it's not overbearing and I run my bookshelf size Paradigms at 8 ohms. Now...modern cd's are about the same volume at around 10 o'clock or so...for my comfortably LOUD level.

I 'spose my system certainly isn't the best matched...but sounds fine to my ears.

As far as an optical cable...I dunno. The point is currently moot to me because my receiver doesn't have an optical, nor coaxial IN.

I'd never really thought of these 'matched' aspects of my components. I just figured this stuff was manufactured to be compatible and apparently it is...as I said, to my ears.

As far as cables...maybe I could get better ones that would 'attenuate' the signal coming out of my cd player ??? I have cheapo Belkin's presently. I don't know how much I could improve on what I have though...it's not audiophile quality...but does sound very good to me. Possibly those attenuating attachments I saw pictures of ?


*just read the details of those in-line attenuators...NICE ! I see on the chart I would need the -16db ones....it's a future consideration for sure !

http://www.russandrews.com/viewinde...&customer_id=PAA1088079214210WCUWKJRFPEJLNYLR

 

If you're already cranking pre-loudness war CDs at 12:00 I doubt you'd need any more than 6dB attenuation - unless you typed 16 by mistake.


As far as higher resistance interconnects go, spare your wallet, those cables are expensive - as in - Pentagon toilet seat expensive compared to a pair of those pads. LOL

 

Well....I typed -16db because of the chart. It shows component output of 2V matched with an input level of 150mV to require the -16db attenuators.

But yeah...I'd think that a bit much with the vast majority of my quieter cd's. Honestly..I don't even think I'd need any attenuation with those. Only time I feel I'd need them is with the old LOUDER cd's..and the majority of new masters.

Ya know...a lot of those old masterings peak out far below -0.0db And the ones that DO peak at or near 0db have much quieter RMS level so the basic volume is still much lower than the 0 db peak of todays remasters..with a RMS much louder than the old. It's not the PEAK blasts that I'm concerned about but the overall RMS. Lots of old cd are in the --20 to 22 range and modern ones are commonly in the -12 to -15 range or louder.

Gotta go...I'll respond again later !

 

Actually, peaks, in my personal experience, are just as important. They're the first casualties of an output-input mismatch, as per the illustration in my O.P.

 

Hell, I don't even get the volume knob up to 12:00 with LPs; it's generally blaring by 10:00. I actually pulled the phono stage gain setting down from the standard 60 dB to 55 for my Denon DL-103R equipped 'table the other day to help with that some.

 

Where/how did you do that?

I actually would feel safer on the Gaza strip than poking around inside my own components. LOL

 

As a) an electronics ***** and b) a giant wimp, I don't randomly mess with stuff inside audio components, believe me. This is a phono preamp with user-adjustable gain and loading settings, and the instructions are in the manual. You just take off the top and move the little red plastic dealies in the photo below onto the relevant clearly labeled gold pins.


Other preamps have dip switches inside or on the back, etc. It's no more difficult or life-threatening than changing a tube. When actual technical things need doing (such as cleaning the grungy volume pot in my integrated amp), I take the item straight to my local technician.

 

Oh...I understand and agree. I was just saying how most of my cd's don't peak out at 0db anyway...so it's the overall volume I'm most concerned about.

I get what I pay for...and my gear doesn't have adjustments I wish I could make. At least they're not readily adjustable with my tinkering abilities.