It's Heresy! My Take on this Polarizing Speaker.

You're talking about the internal resonance modes?
If I look at a SEOS "Denovo Audio SEOS-12 Waveguide 2/3 Bolt Matte with 1-3/8"-18 TPI Adapter" from www.parts-express.com! what strikes me is it is not a sharply rectangular horn. I still suspect that sharply rectangular horns probably have inherent time-domain problems, especially if as usually fed from a circular source. How audibly bad those problem are probably depends on factors that I wish I had equipment and time to research more. I think it's a very interesting area, since a pretty inexpensive horn/waveguide can really improve a lot of the performance of a driver at high and even mid frequencies.

 

No argument from me. A lot of speakers have a bass hump to give the impression of bass extension. I am just pleasantly surprised by the improvements the III series has achieved.

 

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/Low_Frequency_Enclosures2

The bins are pg 2 above

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2205hj.pdf

Here’s links to the JBL bass horns and driver I used.

 

Time domain issues will show up on an impulse response, as far as I know the waveguide/horns I am talking about have very clean impulse response at the frequencies they are used at, like starting to approach impulse response from really good FIR convolution ala Audiovero Acourate. The very large 300 Hz constant directivity horn I am planning to use certainly does and also has extremely clean CSD plots (these are usually pretty nasty with compression drivers) when used with a TAD-4003 compression driver, but the TAD are quite possibly the world's best compression driver by a country mile.

There is a cheap (end of life from the manufacturer so they are blowing them out) constant directivity rectangular waveguide from PartsExpress I have it bookmarked on my other laptop, send me a message if you are interested in trying it and I will look for it. IIRC it was around $100 for a pair of them and around 20" length. Much cheaper than any of the group buy stuff from SEOS.

 

Mmm, yes, they should. So why the cepstrum analysis? I guess I need to re-read that stuff. I'd love to do a horn system, but space and layout and my wife push me towards my next speakers being in-wall. So at best, that means a shallow waveguide for highs and a sensitive mid like 6" or something (since I would like to get back towards a higher sensitivity system).
Although...I have a garage, where I could fit whatever...but can't crank it up as much as in the house...

 

In my experience the prolonged decay in the upper midrange/treble on cumulative spectrals correlate pretty well with the "hashy-ness" (or grittiness) you hear on horns/compression drivers that's why I mentioned them, I know it's separate from the IR. This is a function of the horn/compression driver combo, for the horn I am specifically planning to use the difference between a ~ $200 2" exit B&C driver (Klipsch rebadge these) and TAD is enormous, both the measured and real life listening. The frequency response will be very similar if not indistinguishable on both once the constant directivity compensations are made in the crossover, it seems to be that prolonged decay/nastyness in the upper mid/treble that accounts for a lot of the difference in listening and it becomes more obvious the louder you listen.

 

good job of telling us the story about these speakers. i listened to them briefly and they were too warm and veiled- most likely the room and setup.
i read about the newly reissued fortes as well and it seems they are unforgiving too. unforgiving usually means a peak or plateau in ear sensitive frequencies (2Khz, 3Khz) and / or harmonic distortion.
the big payback for these and other high efficiency speakers (or so i thought) is that they sound big, with unparalleled dynamic jump factor. this was the payoff that made the other trade-offs worth the price of admission. doesn't sound like you had that experience.

 

I would say they have great jump factor for the size and price. They're fun speakers, not as refined as my others, but not brash like I was expecting. Like all speakers, they have their weaknesses but I wouldn't say distortion is any worse than most others at that price.

 

Hey by the way, if anyone around LA has those Klipsch towers, me and my buddy are REALLY curious to hear them. We'll buy you lunch! Or beer! Or both!

 

I'll probably end up sooner or later bringing my KI-396-SMA-II to an LA area meet if you're curious to here those.

 

Still digging your Klipsch HIII? How do they do with Jazz horns like Miles? I’ve been considering a pair, but I am very sensitive to anything wrong in this range.

 

I think they do well, but the other day, my girlfriend mentioned she doesn't like the sound of sax through them. But to be fair, she made a similar comment when listening to the Spendors the other night, so I think maybe she just doesn't care for horn instruments. Your safest bet is to pair them with a tube amp. With my Cayin tube amp and NOS DAC, I can listen for hours without fatigue.

 

My comment would be that I think the Heresy's do what they are able to do, given their size. As far as horn speaker's go, it is the baby of the horn speaker family. The earlier Heresy's crossed over at 700-Hz., while the III's cross over at a higher 850-Hz.

While both of these are quite respectable, even impressive, give the modest physical size of the horn, it remains, that the horn is small. I can understand what your GF is observing. I just don't think the the squaker horn is large enough to do a convincing take on a sax. Thinking about it, I think the horn it self is not large enough to render a big, full sax sound convincingly.

Another problem is that a tenor saxophone only goes up to around 700-Hz. Making any horn the crosses over at a frequency of 700-Hz. or above, not effective in capturing the sax. You would need the large Altec horn's, like the 511B or the larger Klipsch speaker's like the K-Horn's, which cross over at 400-Hz.

Otherwise, a Tenor Sax, would have to be handled entirely by the LF bass driver.

 

I can't speak as to horn size, but I generally don't care for the saxophone sound at all, regardless of how well it's rendered. I can tolerate the instrument in very short stints.

Yeah, the Heresys are baby horns but at ~60Hz^ they can play a convincing scale much better than many larger, conventional driver speakers.

 

You don't have to sell me on horn's. Like I said, for their diminutive size (for a horn speaker), these little horn speaker's can do some really nice things, when paired with the right gear.

It is funny that you mention it. All of my life, unless you had the mellowest of jazz saxophones, I would find the sound very irritating. THis was as specially true with sax sounds on CD's.

Of course, much of saxophone playing in real jazz ensembles, would naturally involve some "shrieking".

But long ago, I just conceded that the sound of recorded saxophones was just going to mostly sound awful and that was they way it was. I always chalked it up to the recording process and figured "oh well".

Then I bought my first tube amps, the used Rogue M-120 Monoblock's, back in 2013. As these were the first tube amps that I have owned since I had my real first stereo back when I was thirteen, I was pretty ignorant to this tube thing.

One of the very first things that impressed my with the used KT88 based monoblock's that I had acquired, was their ability to render saxophone music in a pleasurable and desirable way. The "shrieking" sounds were gone. All that "edge" that this sound had on it, was no longer presenting itself.

That could be applied to the other instrument's as well, but I really noticed the improvement on the sax most of all, because I used to always cringe at some of the sax music that was being played. Plus, the bass had a more rounded natural sound that I had not previously known.

As I further explored different types of tube amps and different powered tube amps, I began a new appreciation for the differences that were more apparent in tube amps, than with the SS amps that I had been using all of these years.

Once I got to the lower power class "A" tube amps, the sax became downright pleasant in a way that I had never thought would be even possible.

 

I'm just curious, have you heard much tenor saxophone in a live setting? I don't mean amplified through a PA but in an accoustic environmentin within a live setting. If so, do you have the same reaction to its sound? I realize different players have different sounds so I don't mean to generalize but I wonder if it's an artifact of an electronic rendering process or not.

 

Prior to purchasing my HIII's, I read so many posts about how they were "shrill" and "honkey" and "too in your face".. none of those characteristics were appealing to me, but the positive reviews I saw were enough for me to give them a try. So I ordered them anyway.

For the first few weeks, I had them set up with a Yamaha R-N803 while I awaited my PrimaLuna Prologue Premium Integrated. I have now used it with the PL for several months. Figured I would chime in on my experience with the HIII's in both scenarios.

Some details.. my room is small (10x10x10) so I sit near-field (6ft from speakers). Because of the room size, I needed to use treatments. On the wall behind the speakers are two 3'x3'x2 inch absorbers. First reflections on the sides are 3'x3'x3" thick. Behind my seating position is a 4'x2'x3 inches as well as two 3'x3'x2 inch absorbers. All four corners have 4'x2'x3 inch Bass Traps. My other equipment is in my bio. I listen pretty equally to vinyl and digital, mostly classic rock and 80's pop.

Setup is important. I have tried them in every possible position, and every possible angle, both on the floor with risers, and on stands of both 18 and 24" heights. For me, the best position is in the corners, on the floors with the risers. Most importantly, the toe in is fairly extreme, with the speakers crossing about a foot in front of my face. Looked odd at first, but it is by far the best sound.

On to the two scenarios:

Yamaha R-N803:

Prior to the HIII's, I had a pair of SVS Ultra Bookshelves and and SVS SB2000 sub. When I got the HIII's, I used them solo and with the sub.

My first reaction when I fired them up... "I see why people say they are a little harsh"... I'm not sure I can accurately describe what I was hearing.. but it was forward, and sounded a little harsh. Yet I was still able to tell that there was something special under there. The sound was almost exciting. It was a completely different experience than I had previously with the SVS Ultras. I let them run in for a week, playing them about 10-12 hours a day while I was gone, and then more when I got home. The first weekend, I settled in for a long listening session, and within a couple hours, just couldn't listen anymore. My ears actually hurt. I went back to the well the next morning with the same outcome.

I knew that I had the PL coming, but at that point, I was 99% sure I was going to end up returning the HIII's.

PrimaLuna Prologue Premium Integrated:

I hooked up the PL using the stock tubes, ran it for a few hours before sitting in the room. I hit shuffle on Tidal, and Dave Mason's "We Just Disagree" was the first song to come on.

It took 10 seconds for me to realize that the HIII's weren't going anywhere.. ever.

Gone was all harshness, replaced by this ultra smooth top end. But the mids were the kicker.. still forward, made me feel like Dave was a few feet from my face, like I was standing on stage right in front of him. Like a concert in my little room. And the bass? All I heard was that a sub was going to be a must, but I couldn't disagree more. In my space, it was wholly unnecessary. I think the bass that the HIII's spit out is natural, plentiful, full and rich. The speakers blend extremely well, and my soundstage is deep and wide. The sweet spot is smallish, but not an issue for me since I typically listen alone.

With the PL, I can listen at extremely low volumes (first hit up on the remote volume) and still get incredible detail and feeling. I listen a lot at night, and this was really important.

But if I'm being honest, turning them up to a tad over 1/3 power is where the magic happens. "Coming to America" by Neil Diamond will knock you back in your chair.. I feel like I'm on stage.. and the drums are smacking me in the chest. Like being at a concert. Magical.

Either way, I can listen all day without any fatigue with this combo.

Conclusion:

My personal opinion is that if you are going to spend the money on the HIII's, pair them with a tube amp. It's not a novel idea, and anyone who has tried them with a tube amp of any quality would probably say the same. What I don't know from personal experience is what a higher end SS amp would sound like. But my Yamaha just didn't bring the best out of them, not by a long shot.

I got back into the hobby about two years ago, and I actually feel pretty fortunate that at this point I have found three brands that I will continue to own for the rest of my life. I will always use Sutherland Industries for my phone pre-amp, PrimaLuna for my Amps and Klipsch Heritage for my speakers. I will most likely move up the ladder for each company at some point, but all three have a customer for life. The sound that I get from this combo on a daily basis far exceeds anything I thought I would ever hear.

 

My father used to play. I couldn't stand it live either. Honestly, I just find the instrument all-around obnoxious, sort of like I do with pipe organ.

 

I didn't find them harsh with my A-S500, but they were a little edgy with the 1100. Amp matching is crucial to get the best from them, but that goes for any speaker really. My dealer claimed he's never had a return on a pair of H-IIIs.

They're not as refined as a typical British monitor but their strengths outweigh the weaknesses. To get similar dynamics and efficiency with better midrange would require something in the $4K+ realm - probably Audio Notes.

 

When I finally get to the point where I can reproduce the deep strong bass needed for a pipe organ, I also came to the same conclusion. I don't like listening to a pipe organ either.

I do like it with some renaissance music, but that is about the extent of what I can handle so far.

 

Holy Smokes! As a huge fan and amature player of the saxophone, this to me is Heresy! I can't imagine anyone objecting to the sound of Chris Potter, Sonny Rollins, Michael Brecker, Wayne Shorter, Kenny Garrett, et al, and not falling in love with the instrument. At least I know your objection isn't related to the horn speaker itself.

 

I like the king of instruments and saxophone. There’s no accounting for taste.

 

could you live the Klipsch (exclusively) ? even if it means parting with the Spendors?

 

Is "pleasant" more important than accurate?