Jico NeoSAS: Ruby or Sapphire?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BarneyRubble, Feb 3, 2017.

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  1. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Hi all,

    I'm one of those people who absolutely loved the original Jico SAS stylus (nude shibata diamond tip, boron cantilever) on my Rega P2 (with upgrade to P3-equivalent tonearm) with Shure V15 Type IV cartridge. Those who've been following Jico most likely know by now that they've had to replace the cantilever (due to the scarcity of boron, to my understanding) and now do NeoSAS styli in both Sapphire (at about double the price of the original, back when it was in production) and Ruby (at about four times the original price). Before I plunk down money on either of those (foreseen sometime this year), I basically want to know if there's an audible difference between the two, and/or if either sound just as good (or better :D) than the original NeoSAS.

    This may be entry-level audio to some, but the surprising result I got with my original P2/P3/Shure/SAS setup when playing early UK pressings of the Moody Blues' "Classic 7" albums was absolutely worth every penny. Any help is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
     
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  2. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Correction: should read "just as good (or better :D ) than the original Jico SAS". Thanks!
     
  3. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I'm still on the original SAS and planning to get the SAS/r as soon as possible. The way I see it, this isn't an investment you have to make too often, so why not allow your gear to perform to the best of its abilities. Even at its most expensive it still pales in comparison to the cost of replacement styli for some other carts, or just other carts in general.

    I'd think the tapered cantilever found on the ruby would make an appreciable improvement in tracking ability due to the lower moving mass, at least in comparison to the sapphire. I'd love to hear the opinion of anyone who's heard either of the new ones and is familar with the original SAS.
     
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  4. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    The point where I'm at right now is a lack of familiarity with either the Sapphire or Ruby model, as well as whatever other options are out there at a comparable price. (I don't even want to say what happened that requires me to look for a replacement to my SAS... :sigh:)

    Despite my love for hi-fi audio, I've only ever heard a few turntables (which I can count on one hand) that were of higher audio fidelity than my own... the pièce de résistance so far was a VPI turntable with one of the Grado cartridges: I remember telling its owner/seller that I could "hear all the advantages of vinyl, simultaneously with all the advantages digital claims to have, all coming from the turntable": my A&M Audiophile Series copy of Supertramp's "Even in the Quietest Moments..." was coming through in near-holographic beauty. I have an Audio-Technica AT-14sa cartridge somewhere in my things, given to me for free by someone who saw an indentation on its body and didn't want to send $$$ on a replacement stylus just to find out if it worked (let's just say the stylus that was on it at the time was very, um, malleable and would bend into the cartridge whenever it was placed on a resistant surface). Apart from that, I'm pretty much a neophyte.

    So, to repeat what MrRom92 said, if anyone's heard either of the new ones and knows the original SAS, your opinion is much appreciated.
     
  5. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Ah, seems like the Jico aren't a very popular choice on here... Maybe I should just go for a Hana cartridge... or a Goldring cartridge... Should I just change the thread title to this? :biglaugh:
     
  6. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I have experience with boron and ruby cantilevers. The boron is much superior IMO. Between ruby and sapphire I would guess ruby over sapphire but it would depend on the characteristics of the cartridge to some extent. I would make an effort to try and find a boron cantilever myself.
     
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  7. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    Ruby and sapphire are the same crystalline structure, so there's no significant difference between a clear, blue or white sapphire cantilever and the red one, other than color. Any performance differences would come down to other factors (tapered or not, etc.).
     
  8. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Hmmm... extrapolating from both your comments, it seems I'd stand to lose were I to buy a Jico NeoSAS with either a ruby or sapphire cantilever, as opposed to a boron one. Oddly enough, however, the other cartridges I've been exploring have cantilevers made out of materials such as aluminum (!)... Well, that would be the Hana SL/SH, and I have no idea yet what material is employed in the Goldring 1042's cantilever). Man, that original Jico SAS made the Shure V15 Type IV cartridge sing, however. And so a hunt I guess it will be! ;) Now, if only I could take that RB200 out of storage and find some kind of block on which I could set it up, in order to have two tonearms on my Rega P3, I could get both the Hana SL/SH and the Goldring 1042! ...Anybody got experience with that? Any opinions?
     
  9. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    Check out this write up. FYI, I'm buying one.

    M~
     
  10. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Sweet! :) Where's the link? OH! Now I see it! :D Thanks!
     
  11. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Thanks Macster! :D Just read through the thread and I'm amazed to see there seems to be no audible difference between the boron, the ruby and the sapphire cantilevers... except for price. :p (Less surprising, however, is the amount of criticism the reviewer received... :( ) Clicking on a link to LPGear in that same thread, to examine if any of their touted "Vivid Line" styli were available for the Shure V15 Type IV cartridge, I was surprised to see what appears to be the original SAS selling for more than the sapphire SAS! I'm wondering if I should just return to the JICO, or delve into the Hana and/or Goldring cartridges. Decisions, decisions... :sweating:
     
  12. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Extrapolating on the thread to which Macster linked, there's previous evidence of JICO raising prices for detail which didn't seem to be related to sound quality whatsoever... Was it the Dragon, they called it? A regular stylus just hand-painted to be a different colour (I think it was red, and they only painted the plastic part of the stylus insert, not the stylus itself)... which, if I recall correctly, doubled the price. So maybe I should just go with the sapphire and get along with it o_O
     
  13. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    I've wandered far and wide from my Shure V15V and even sold the original one that I had. I've done the MC/MI/MM things also. But I'd always longed for the "Shure/Sound/Experience." The JICO SAS doesn't give me the "exact" same Shure experience, but it's good enough. I also have a Goldring GL2500 which is a fantastic cartridge for the money, which I will mount again when I get a third armtube. For the now the V15V/M97XE will stay on the two armtubes that I have, because of the sound and the flexibility that they offer.

    M~
     
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  14. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    I'd be curious as to understand what flexibility Shure cartridges offer (as I currently have a Shure) that Goldrings (or that particular Goldring) doesn't. Thanks for any info you can share. :)
     
  15. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Real talk, I've got a regular old SAS and I find the new pricing for these models pretty hard to swallow. Most people come in and say how smitten they are with their SAS (I'm referring more to the old days) but if it were my money I would be looking for a different cart at that point. These Shure carts are great but the market is inflated IMO and the fact that most of the carts are looking for low mass arms makes it a tougher proposition for arm matching.
     
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  16. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    The flexibility allow me to purchase/make the condition of the record less important. For example I setup my all of cartridges with a record that has deep scratches in it. The rational is basically as follows: I'm not always going to be blessed with finding a "perfect" copy of music that I like. What I want from my system is for it to allow me to enjoy the music that I want, with the condition of the record/tape/CD etc having as minimal impact as is possible. With the Shures I can swap in the SAS/stock stylus/Rebuilt stylus dependent upon the condition of the record. If something is not broken or severely damaged, I stand a good chance of being able to enjoy the music that's on it and for me that is the sole purpose of my system. I don't care about accuracy, detail etc per say, all I want to do is to be able to enjoy the music.

    M~
     
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  17. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Now that you say it, that makes sense! (And it's one of the main reasons why I want to add a second tonearm to my rega, using a pod... until a friend told me that Rega discourages pod use as they insist on an exact distance and overhang of the tonearm relative to the spindle... then he suggested I buy myself a VPI. :sigh: If I had the budget to buy a VPI, I wouldn't be fretting over these details...)

    Well, speaking Shure V15 Type IV, right now the lower-priced NeoSAS (I keep forgetting if sapphire or ruby is the most expensive) is cheaper than the price I'm seeing for the original SAS... I'm wishing that all three versions (both NeoSAS and the SAS) actually all do sound the same, as the test linked above says (and would be typical of some past offerings from JICO which were basically hand-painting regular cartridges and then doubling the price). This would prompt me to buy the least expensive of the three (although I'm still attached to the thought of replacing like for like, meaning I'd opt for the original SAS), but the currently higher price is what prompted me to ask a dealer or two, "Well, what are my options for a great-sounding new cartridge in a similar price range?"
     
  18. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Quick update: received a Ruby NeoSAS (ordered it thinking it was an original SAS), and am quite pleased with it: I would say it does as compelling a job as the original SAS did, and the Moody Blues test (original UK LP pressing, or at least very early one: each side is one long "track" without visible separations) was a solid success (those flutes and acoustic guitars sounded mighty real to me, and the reverb used on the overall mix comes through beautifully and not a "glommy" sonic mess, and, ironically, the Mellotron... oh, the Mellotron :uhhuh:). What surprised me is that I hardly had to break the stylus in: from the first LP I played, things sounded mighty rich (although since word is the break-in mellows out a high end which apparently starts off over-pronounced, quite possibly I was playing otherwise dull-sounding vinyl and the two undesirables were cancelling each other out?).
    The DSD transfers I made from several of my vinyl soothe my ears, I can tell you that. :edthumbs:

    My word: it's still worth the price... well, the lower price. I don't see any need to buy the higher-priced one at this time (and considering JICO was inflating the price of what they called their "dragon" stylus just because some "artist" had painted a red line on a regular one's plastic, I'm guessing there's no difference in what are already great sonics).
     
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  19. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Thanks for your write up, very helpful but I should point out that the ruby is the more expensive of the 2. And it's not simply an aesthetic difference as was the case with their older hand-lacquered stylus housings, the ruby actually has a lower moving mass than the sapphire due to the tapered design of the cantilever.
     
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  20. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I had a ruby rebuild on my Lyra and I snapped it with very light contact from the side of my hand while changing records. So light I wasn't sure if I actually touched it.

    I've heard similar stories about a ruby cateliver. I would avoid that material
     
  21. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    I'm curious also as to which one you purchased, would you clarify it for us?

    thaks

    M~
     
  22. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Thanks! I did buy the less expensive of the two, so I guess that was the Sapphire (either way, it's the one which doesn't have an extra letter after the "Neo-SAS" designation). Reading Dennis' warning (to which I can relate... I believe I may have broken my previous SAS cantilever when the tonearm descended too quickly and came in contact with the side of the platter instead of the vinyl surface), I may very well avoid the ruby until I can absolutely justify paying that big a price for a stylus that I would either have to handle with kid gloves, or keep off my cartridge except for the uses that really demanded it (ie. digitizing to DSD/DSF, very detailed listening sessions, and so on). Thanks, Dennis, for letting us know! :righton:
     
  23. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    The sapphire should be more or less identical just without the tapered design so I'm definitely curious to hear how yours holds up - the fragility is something that concerns me, as I've never had any kind of crystal cantilever before. I'm curious what stylus cleaning product people are having good and safe results with? Magic eraser has always worked for me but now I'm thinking it might be time to finally go with a zerodust when I make the upgrade!
     
  24. BarneyRubble

    BarneyRubble Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    I've still been using a small brush (which I used as well with my old SAS, when I wasn't being naughty by using my fingertips!:yikes:), but after your comment, I just might get one of those plastic bubbles on which you rest the stylus (is that the Zerodust of which you speak?).
     
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  25. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    From my experience: Don't use a round brush, use either a flat bush, a bottle of LP 9 or Blue tach (by dropping gently onto a dime sized portion.

    M~
     
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