Got an email from Jill Gibson the other day regarding her involvement on the 2nd Mamas and Papas album, just thought I'd share in case anyone's interested. -------------------------------------------------------- Hi Chris, I finally got back from Mexico and I will try to answer your questions now..by paragraph: 1. There's no agreements about me talking or not talking about my experience in the M&P's. I got a smallish lump sum for going into the M&P's. I was lied to about being entitled to my royalties so I never got those. 2. I sang 10 songs on the 2nd album. Since there were only 2 I didn't sing, it's easier to remember those. Dancing in the Street was one, and off hand I forget the other. Michelle and I never sang together on the album. It's highly unlikely money was spent to change anything after I left. I, also, hear my voice on the 10 songs. 3. We did do the background vocals together as a group. 4. As far as I know, Dancing in the Street was done before she left the group. The finished album had some sort of pre-release while I was in the group, so Dancing in the Street must have been finished before she left. I sang Words of Love and yes, I sang the NO. It's hard to remember the second song I didn't sing because during the time I was doing the album, I was also rehearsing all the songs, including the 1st album, for touring. 5. I would love to check out the work you've done extracting voice. I did sing Trip, Stumble, and Fall. I couldn't download anything while in Mexico and now I don't see an attachment on your email. Can you send it again? I hope this was helpful for you. All the best, Jill -------------------------------------------------------
Michelle has said her favorite M&P recording is "My Heart Stood Still". I kinda doubt she'd say that if it was Jill Gibson's vocal on it.
That's what I was thinking as well. Only problem is, it seems as if Michelle is on "Once Was a Time I Thought" as well, if the outtake version from A Gathering of Flowers" is any indication. I'll upload some of my center channel extractor results and link 'em here so people can try to come to their own conclusions. We have a discussion about this going over at http://www.casselliot.com/forum/ if anyone would like to weigh in.
The "no agreements" thing is in reference to a question I asked her regarding whether or not she was legally allowed to talk about the situation.
Help me understand this... from what I gather, Michelle Philips temporarily left M&P after starting the 2nd album and Jill Gibson was brought in as her replacement at that time? And then Michelle came back and Jill was out of the picture?
Yep. Michelle was kicked out because she was having an affair with Denny. Bringing her back was mostly a business decision.
That's interesting. I thought she was only brought in as a "touring" member. I didn't realize that she sang on any of their records.
The vision was that Jill Gibson was going to be the new Mama in the band, on record and on stage. I didn't know that any of her vocals made it to the finished project; I thought those had been carefully overlaid with vocals by Michelle when she returned, just like the image on the album cover was doctored. I'd be interested to know if Jill Gibson made it onto the final product of any M&P releases. The story Michelle told was that when Jill went on stage, the band got booed. Jill's main qualification for the job was being Lou Adler's girlfriend, though I'm sure she had some musical talent to travel in those circles. It's cool that someone's in touch with her. Didn't she go on to do something somewhat bigger, and more original?
Well, I always thought that she had a good voice (probably better than Michelle). One of my favorite songs is "It's As Easy As 1-2-3" that she wrote with Don Atfeld. It was done as a duet with Jan Berry on Jan & Dean's Dead Man's Curve/The New Girl In School and The Little Old Ladty From Pasadena LPs. She wrote a bunch of other songs also, if I remember correctly.
Maybe Jill could also explain why she was taken off the later edition of that Lp,and Michelle was put back on in the same pose as her? Just a suggestion,mind you!
Okay, a few things: -You have to be really careful with taking any info you read/hear about the Mamas and Papas as fact. I swear, there is more inaccurate info about them than any other group I know of. John was a bit of a storyteller and more interested in an entertaining story than with necessarily telling the truth, and all of them were taking copious amounts of drugs, including massive quantities of LSD, so memories of the events of the time may not be quite accurate. -The story about replacing Michelle with Jill in the same pose on the album cover is pretty much crap. If the idea ever existed at all, it was quickly scrapped. The album did have a pre-release of some kind while Jill was still in the group, and the cover of the album was very different from the final release. A few people have seen the pre-release version that I know of, and there is a very low quality picture floating around online, which I used to make a higher quality re-creation of it that you can check out here http://www.flickr.com/photos/97319064@N00/3298652549/in/set-72157614277604374/ -From what I've heard, the stories of Jill getting booed and people yelling "Where's Mama Michelle?" are greatly exaggerated, as in, one person did it at one concert, I believe. -It is a fact that Jill's voice is on the 2nd record. The only question is to exactly what songs. I'll re-post something that I posted last night over at the casselliot.com forums... "I think a little insight into how these tracks were actually recorded will show that Jill's voice could not have been removed from anything that she originally recorded without in fact re-recording the entire song, all parts, from scratch, which would simply not have been a financially viable option for Dunhill. Let's start with this post from Steve Hoffman (scroll down thread to post #16): http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showt ... amas+mixes Now, according to Jill and all other accounts I have read and photographs I have seen of the group in the studio, the backing vocals were recorded with all of them singing at the same time. As soon as this track was bounced, it would become "locked" in the mix, so to speak, with no way to "erase" any particular voice from the track. Remember that Western only had a 4-track recorder at the time. By the time a lead vocal, strings/horns, additional instrumental and vocal overdubs were added, the backing vocals probably wouldn't have been on a dedicated track. Even if they were, all of them would still have to re-record all of their backing vocals in order to get rid of Jill's. If the backing vocals were not on a dedicated track by the end of the recording of a particular song, which they most likely were not, then they would not only have had to re-record everyone's backing vocals, but also re-record any instruments and other vocals that were on the same track as well. Either way, I just can't see this as being a viable option financially for a record company. Furthermore, do you really think that people in the industry at the time thought enough of the average record buyer to think they would even be able to tell the difference between Jill and Michelle's voices, especially when mixed in with everything else? The very best that they could have done after Michelle came back into the group would be to have her sing additional parts on top of Jill's parts, but Jill's parts would still be there. But why even invest the additional time and money in that? Many of us have been listening to those records for years and still can't tell exactly who's singing what part, so how would they have justified the expense when most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway. Short of any convincing evidence to the contrary (session sheets, audio/video of the whole group with Michelle re-recording the parts, etc...) the only logical answer is that Jill's voice is in fact on every track that she originally recorded, or that virtually the entire album was scrapped and re-recorded with Michelle, which I've never heard anybody claim."
Not only that, but the best way to cohesively record group vocals is by using a single condenser mic with an omnidirectional patter - not by using individual mics for each vocalist.
As I mentioned earlier, it's all very interesting to hear her take on things. As long as it's tempered with a grain of salt (just like John's remarks over the years). As others have noted, Michelle is definitely on Once Was A Time I Thought. And, I don't think anyone would deny that she's on I Saw Her Again (which I'd assume she's including). If you add in "Dancing," that immediately muddles Jill's song number theory. I would've bet my last dollar too that it was Michelle doing the "No" on "Words." Sure does sound like her. So, I'm fascinated - but skeptical. I'll be interested to see how this all plays out (and hear those "extraction" samples). Dave PS - Why hasn't a single aural example from "Crashon" ever turned up, if it did indeed make it to the radio station, promo stage? Yet, someone on this site once claimed that they saw the actual *album* in the flesh.
I would deny that Michelle's on I Saw Her Again. It, and most tracks on the record, seem to have a different vocal blend than on the other LP's. Some people seem to be avoiding some indisputable facts here: *Jill did record the 2nd album with the group. Watch the bonus features on the newest Straight Shooter DVD issue, Michelle even says this herself. *If you read my post above, you will see that it's really not possible that Jill's vocals were just magically 'erased' from the tracks that she sang on. Anyway, just finished up vocal extraction on "That Kind of Girl", will post a link in a few... Oh, and perhaps a good reason why no aural examples seem to have turned up from the pre-release "Crashon..." is that they are no different from the released version of the album. It certainly does exist though, check Charles' Mamas and Papas Online Price Guide http://home.comcast.net/~dunhill1966/mamas.htm
I think Jill sang very well. Her main musical project after The Mamas And The Papas was as backing singer and co-contributor with Gary Zeckley of 2 songs to Yellow Balloon. Yellow Balloon is an excellent album IMO but wasn't big commercially and she wasn't credited as a member of The Yellow Balloon. I think her brief career as a Mama surely was the highlight of her musical career. I believe she is a painter today.
I'll agree that it's harder to pick out Michelle's voice compared to the bulk of the other albums. I still think that I hear her on I Saw Her Again though. Right before the instrumental break. I'll admit that I've never heard Jill's voice, but it sure does sound like Michelle to me (i.e. like the "No" on "Words"). I didn't make myself clear. I'm not stating that "Crashon" was patently different or the same. Just that I've never seen a picture of the actual *vinyl* itself (i.e. the "album in the flesh" reference). I wanted to know if anyone who may have heard this record could verify that everything was *identical*...from top to bottom. It might help shed some light if *any* adjustments were made. Has it ever been absolutely confirmed that it was just a vinyl swap-out? Again, I've never seen the vinyl label itself (or the back cover). Is that white label promo that's pictured supposed to be the corresponding vinyl issued with "Crashon"?
Don't know the answers to any of that, David, you'll have to ask Charles and see if he knows. Anyway, here is the link to "That Kind of Girl"... http://www.imeem.com/people/wmwoWbG/music/Jr0mtL1A/mps-that-kind-of-girl-vocal-only-monomp3/ More to come soon...
That's *definitely* interesting. Particularly, the "she's one of those girls" tag at the end. Though, some of the earlier "two-part" female figures almost sound like it could be Cass singing both parts. The band did do that, on occasion, too. Nonetheless, I'll agree that I don't really hear Michelle clearly. I'd love to hear what Jill's voice/timbre sounds like in one of her non-M&P tracks...as a frame of reference. I also wanted to comment on Michelle stating that My Heart Stood Still was "her favorite track." I don't have my CD's or records handy right now. Is she audible on that cut in an obvious way? Going from memory, I'm hearing her -- at least in my head -- on the intro. Time to dig out the music...
Yeah, the "My Heart Stood Still" thing is one of the things I was wondering about as well. I suppose I'll attempt to extract the vocals on that one next. Oh, and M&P historian Richard Campbell just brought up an interesting point over on the casselliot.com forums, from his post... "PS--I've always thought Jill was quite audible in Look Through My Window." That would be a song not from the 2nd album with Jill, as the single was released in this time period, quite a while before it was included on the Deliver LP.
