Didn't Michelle herself say on several ocassions that she only sang on 2 or 3 songs on that album? Perhaps the 3 were "Dancing In The Streets", "My Heart Stood Still" and "Once Was A Time I Thouht". Since "Look Through My Window" was also cut during the sessions for the 2nd album, perhaps it's Jill on that song. This would make it a total of 10 songs that she recollects singing on during those sessions and this would jive with the 3 songs that Michelle remembers singing on. It's just my theory.
I held an actual copy in my hands (at The House Of Oldies), in 1968, but I can't remember the track listing. Sorry.
I just pulled out some stuff. I didn't "OOPS" or filter the tracks. But, here's my impressions just listening as-is. Take it with a grain of salt. ("Look Through My Window" was released as a single in the Fall of 1966. Correct? So, wouldn't that be well before the whole Michelle/Jill drama? That really does sound like Michelle to me on the "See the people hurrying BY" line above Cass. Really that last word. Other places too.) "My Heart Stood Still." - sure sounds like Michelle on that one. Clear as a bell in the right channel on the opening "...that's all I meant to do. And then my heart stood still." - in unison with Cass. This would be one that I would wager to bet on. "Trip, Stumble and Fall" - sounds like it *could* be lacking Michelle. And that does sound like a different female voice to me (along with Cass) on the final outro. Again, I wish I knew what JG sounded like! "Dancing Bear" sounds like Michelle is on it, IMHO. Mixed lower than Cass...but still there. Who knows though? Hard to tell. "Words Of Love." - now, I'm not so sure. You planted the seed of doubt in my mind. "Strange Young Girls" - sounds too like it could be a different female voice along with Cass. I forgot what a great, atmospheric song this is. I've never done an illicit/illegal drug in my life, but I'd imagine if I did, this would sound pretty impressive in an altered state. "I Can't Wait" - could be Jill too. "Even If I Could" - sounds like Michelle on that one, IMHO. Maybe, because it's one of my favorite, underrated songs by the band. I hope my parade isn't rained on. Love the mono mix too! "No Salt On Her Tail" - sounds like Michelle to me. Great song. "That Kind Of Girl," "Once Was A Time I Thought" and "Dancing In The Streets" already discussed. Other than "My Heart Stood Still," "Once Was A Time I Thought" and "Dancing In The Streets," all educated guesses. I'd love to know the actual *recording* date of "I Saw Her Again" too. That might help shed some light considering the time frame at hand. I don't have the import box set. Is there a sessionography on there?
Interesting topic. I have heard the rare Jill Gibson 45 of "It's as Easy as 1,2,3" (it uses the same backing track as the Jan & Dean track, but it's only her singing) and she has a very simular voice to Michelle.
Yep, and her vocals blend so well with Cass, its hard to tell. Jill was an excellent replacement for Michelle, and would have eventfully won the fans over had she stayed. I've always felt the second album was their best album, and it sadly gets overlooked. My favorite John Phillips songs are on it. They should have kept the "Crashon.." title, it would have helped distinguish it.
I'll just add, to avoid confusion and for anyone else who wants to play along, I'm not sure (tonight) of the *actual* channel of Michelle's voice. My DVD drive in my computer has a nasty habit of randomly reversing channels whenever it feels like it!
Probably my overall favorite too. Ironic, considering the topic at hand, that Michelle has dismissed it through the years as her least favorite by the band. Maybe not so ironic after all!
Ahhh...so you were the one (see post#19). I remembered that *someone* here had actually held it in their hands. Probably would've been worth a small (actually a pretty big) fortune by now, eh?
FWIW, here's what Wiki had to say on the matter. Followed by a heated exchange by two people in the discussion section. The usual Wiki grain-of-salt cautions apply. Bolding mine. The entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Gibson "Beginning in late June and continuing through July and part of August 1966, Jill, Cass Elliot, Denny Doherty, John Phillips and Lou Adler recorded the band's second LP at Western Studios in Los Angeles, California with Bones Howe as the engineer. Six tracks of the second album had already been recorded with Michelle in April, 1966, including "I Saw Her Again", which was released as the first single in early July and would peak at #5 on the Billboard singles chart on July 30, 1966, while Jill was a member of the band. Gibson says she recorded ten tracks with the band. Four of the ten tracks were re-recorded (they had been previously recorded with Michelle before she was fired) to include Jill's vocals. Producer Lou Adler says it was six tracks they used Gibson on and that when Michelle returned they were replaced." The exchange: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jill_Gibson "There are a lot of claims here and very few facts. Studio musicians who played on all the sessions from what became the second album by the Mamas and Papas and Lou Adler himself say that Jill Gibson's vocals are not on the album. The implication one can take away from reading the article here is that Jill is on the single of "I Saw Her Again Last Night" and that is not true. That was not recorded. That is Denny's original flub recorded with Denny, Michelle, John and Cass at the end that Lou decided to keep. This article treats Jill Gibson as though she is Saint Jill while the Michelle Phillips entry treats Michelle as a tramp. Jill Gibson isn't that pure and Michelle is not the root of all evil. Wikipedia needs to address the rampant sexism in all the Mamas and the Papas entries and in this fantasy tale of Jill Gibson, they need to start sourcing their claims as opposed to presenting false claims as facts and avoiding being challenged because they didn't footnote." "You clearly have your facts messed up. Where did you get your information about Lou Adler? And why did you not state your name in your post? Are you avoiding something? Your false claims are without credibility. Both Lou Adler and Bones Howe have made it more than clear over the years that Jill Gibson sings several songs on the second album by the Mamas & Papas. Read Mathew Greenwald's book or wait for Greg Russo's upcoming book on the group and you will understand more on this matter. You may just learn a little something about the truth concerning the recording of the band's second album. Also, several of the musicians who were there, including Hal Blaine, have verified the very same thing. This is no fairy tale. Jill Gibson appears on four of the twelve tracks. I do not see your point on how this article treats Jill Gibson as a saint. I see no such thing here. As for your comment on Michelle Phillips being treated as a tramp..that is just ridiculous. No where in this article is Michelle Phillips treated as such." ~~Karen Lackey
I would take the Wikipedia entry not with a grain of salt, but perhaps a bucket. Here's something I just stumbled upon, not sure of the original source, but an interesting read still... -------------------------------------------------------------------- "It was through Adler that Gibson met the rock group The Mamas and the Papas, a band Adler was producing and who were huge in the late 1960s. Occasionally Jill would visit Lou in the studio while he was producing his 'magic' with the band, who had just begun work on a new album. Gibson found herself in the right place at the right time, when the leader of the group John Phillips fired his wife Michelle Gilliam from the band on Saturday, June 4, 1966, for having had an affair with Gene Clark of The Byrds. Within days Jill had been asked to join The Mamas & the Papas as their newest member Mama Jill, and shortly after this the group along with Lou Adler left for Europe for several weeks to begin working together. Arriving in London, England Jill, Cass, John, Denny, and Lou rented the top half of a large house in Barclay Square to work in (the downstairs part was rented to Mick Jagger and model Chrissie Shrimpton). Over the next three weeks Gibson rehearsed non stop with the group in London for the recording of the band's upcoming second album and for a few live shows. While in England the band had a series of business meetings but still made time to party with John Lennon and Paul McCartney of The Beatles, and Keith Richards, Brian Jones, and Mick Jagger of The Rolling Stones at Dolly's (the private London rock club that catered to the stars). Upon returning to the United States the group, their attorney Abe Somer, and their label Dunhill Records officially fired Mama Michelle on Tuesday, June 28, 1966, and had officially hired Mama Jill two weeks earlier. Begining in late June and continuing through July 1966, Jill, Cass Elliot, Denny Doherty, John Phillips and Lou Adler recorded the band's second LP at Western Studios in Los Angeles, California with Bones Howe as the engineer. Ten tracks were recorded for the sophomore album including "I Saw Her Again", which was quickly released as the first single in early July and would peak at No. 5 on the Billboard singles chart on July 30, 1966, while Jill was a member of the band. Three of the ten tracks were re-recorded (they had been previously recorded with Michelle before she was fired) to include Jill's vocals. It was decided the album would be called Crashon Screamon All Fall Down, and was scheduled for an August release. Prior to Michelle's firing, the band had been photographed for the cover of their second LP inside the window frame of an abandoned house in the desert. This was soon rectified by their label Dunhill Records who asked the original photographer Guy Webster, to photograph Jill Gibson alone in the exact same pose as Michelle had been in, and then to superimpose Jill's image over Michelle's. The record label was not satisfied with the finished product and therefore ordered an entire new album cover to be shot by Webster. Guy then shot a splendid new cover with Jill, John, Denny, and Cass outside in a field of grass against a white picket fence. (This image can be seen on the official website of Cass Elliot). The label was pleased with this new album cover and it was used as promotion for the upcoming new LP inside of the music trade papers, as well as on large billboards across the country. A promotional campaign to introduce Jill Gibson as the newest Mama soon followed with articles in such publications as Newsweek magazine who did an article on the group called "Under the Lemon Trees", where they referred to Jill as "skeletal, modish, blonde and beautiful". A cover story on Jill was featured in KYA BEAT with the headline reading "Brand New Mama". The article inside of this San Francisco publication screamed, "Michelle's Out!". The new Mamas and the Papas then quickly did several television show appearances with Gibson to promote their new single "I Saw Her Again". The Mamas & the Papas hit the road for a five city concert tour in late July and early August begining in Forest Hills, New York and ending in San Francisco, California. Other dates included Denver, Colorado, Dallas, Texas and Phoenix, Arizona. Simon & Garfunkel opened for the band on some of these dates. Things according to Jill had gone smoothly as if the fans had accepted her. She was comfortable performing on stage with the group and enjoyed singing all of the songs in the band's forty minute set. But according to John, the chemistry within the group was not there with Jill. He decided in late August 1966, it would be best that Jill be let go and that Michelle be reinstated, even though Phillips would admit that Gibson had sung well and had done a very good job. Contrary to popular belief, fans did not scream out for Mama Michelle during every live concert with Jill as a member of The Mamas and the Papas singing group. It occurred only once according to Gibson, at a show in Forest Hills, New York where a male fan had shouted out, "Where's Michelle?". This one time incident has since been greatly exaggerated over the decades and has today taken on a myth like existence of its own. Jill Gibson later would say she felt betrayed by John, Cass, and Denny, but was relieved to be free of all the chaos that seemed to follow this supergroup. The band and their label Dunhill Records gave Jill an undisclosed lump sum for her two and a half month stint as Mama Jill. The album the group had recorded with Gibson was then pulled by the label to accommodate Michelle's return. No copies of the album featuring Jill were ever released to the public. Only the promotional copies that were sent to national radio stations across the U.S. were released with Jill as a member. These promo copies are the Crashon Screamon All Fall Down cover with the white picket fence picture of the band, and are valuable collectibles today. With Mama Michelle back in the mix, two extra tracks were cut for the second album. The LP was soon re-named simply as The Mamas and the Papas and it hit the stores in September 1966, with Michelle's image on the cover. Jill Gibson would later claim that her vocals are featured on the entire album except for two tracks that feature Michelle's voice. Never the less, the LP would go gold and would peak at No. 4 on the Billboard album charts without Jill receiving a gold copy herself. A second single called "Words of Love", was released from the LP, and it too hit the Billboard top five chart in late 1966 pushing the album into platinum status. However, things would still remain quite intense for the four original members until the band finally parted ways in the summer of 1968. After having been ejected from The Mamas & the Papas, Jill continued to write songs on her acoustic guitar inside her small Westwood Village apartment in Los Angeles, which was above a garage. She wrote the song "How Can I Be Down" with record producer Gary Zekley for the psychedelic band The Yellow Balloon, a band that featured actor Don Grady of the hit television show My Three Sons and included a young Daryl Dragon. She also co-produced with Don Altfeld a cover version of the Bo Diddley song, "Who Do You Love" for the blues-rock group, The Woolies. Around this same time Gibson returned to photography, which she had once studied at UCLA and which continued to remain an interest of hers. In June 1967 Gibson attended the first ever Monterey International Pop Festival with Lou Adler, where she was an invited member of the press. Over this three day period in sunny Monterey, California, which later became historical, she photographed nearly every act on the bill. Her photographs of Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, the Mamas & Papas, as well as many others, have been published around the world. Photography was one of Jill's many passions. Gibson can be seen in the film version of this festival, Monterey Pop, filmed beautifully by D.A. Pennebaker. In early October 1967 Jill and Lou offered their support during Cass Elliot's court hearing in London, England, where Cass was being charged with stealing two hotel blankets, two keys, and an unpaid hotel bill. The charges against Elliot were later dropped to the relief of many and soon after this Gibson and Adler took a vacation together to Belgium with singer Scott McKenzie and his girlfriend at the time, Ann Marshall." -------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, and in case I failed to mention this already, Richard Campbell said he does have the session sheets for the album somewhere amongst his million other M&P's related items and will try to locate them and see what they have to say about it.
The California Dreamin' DVD includes a black and white promo film for "I Saw Her Again" which features Michelle. This would not seem to support the theory that Gibson was a member of the band at this point.
I've never seen it said that that film was meant specifically for "I Saw Her Again". I've seen it used for "Straight Shooter" as well. Oh, and here's a pic of Jill on TV with the group, doing, I would assume, "I Saw Her Again"...
Didn't she also date either Jan or Dean? I have an early 70s Jan & Dean comp that has a timeline of their singles and, bizarrely, who they were dating at the time of each release. According to that, Jill was dating one of those guys for a good while in the mid 60s.
At this point, I'm still definitely interested to hear whatever info John'sMusicBox digs up. But, my first impressions are that the he said-she said on *both* sides (i.e. Adler and Co., as well as Jill) needs to be taken with a grain of salt or factored into the equation. Immediately, I still have to question Jill's recollections that she's on ten of the twelve tracks from the album (though, I realize that she may have just used that nice, round number as an approximate one). She's not on "Dancing In The Streets" by her own admission. She's not on "Once Was A Time I Thought" because we have heard the actual session (as well as Michelle's prominent voice). And, considering Michelle calling "My Heart Stood Still" her favorite M&P track ever, as well as what appears to be, at least IMHO, her voice on clear display in the intro, I don't believe Jill's on that one. So, that said, *nine* would be a best case scenario. Now, when you factor listening into it, I'm even more inclined to be a little cautious with her claims. I'm still hearing Michelle on other tracks from the album. If we choose the put-forth theory that Jill's only on four songs, a **guess** might be (using listening) that they are "Trip, Stumble and Fall," "I Can't Wait," "That Kind Of Girl," and perhaps "Words Of Love" (being that Jill is so adamant that she's on the "No"). Conversely, if we choose the theory that Jill's voice is very similar to Michelle's...then all bets are off. Though personally, at this point, until I see definitive proof otherwise, I'm still inclined to accept the former. The problem with all of this stuff -- musicians, producers -- is that memories fade or can often be flat out wrong. Different sides may recall differently (Carol Kaye or Bernard Purdie anyone?). Not out of anything malicious, just an honest belief in being correct. I'll look forward to any new info though. Session sheets, new recollections, etc. And a big thank you to "John" for starting this interesting thread. Any reason to listen to these wonderful songs again...is a good reason!
Why is it so hard to believe that Michelle's favorite song might be one that has her replacement's vocal on it? (laughter) Okay, it was worth a shot. NJB
Ill just add that "Johnsmusicbox" comments about how the band may have recorded shouldn't necessarily be discounted either. All good arguments. Furthermore, if someone could present or verify the actual *vinyl* content of "Crashon," that would go a long way in potentially swinging the pendulum in the other direction. The match or lack of being a key component in the puzzle (assuming we also definitively know which tracks -- e.g. "Dancing" -- were in the can *before* Michelle left), and that the vinyl itself is authentic (i.e. not new vinyl stuffed in an original cover).
Ok, Richard was right, it's Jill on "Look Through My Window"... http://www.imeem.com/people/wmwoWbG/music/Vrmb-I4K/the-mamas-the-papas-look-through-my-window/ Compare it to this (Unfortunately I don't have the version of this with only Jill singing, if someone does, please post it!) http://www.imeem.com/people/wmwoWbG/music/VKNbG1YQ/jan-dean-its-as-easy-as-123/ So if Michelle is indeed on "Dancing In the Street", "Once Was a Time I Thought" and "Glad to Be Unhappy", Jill could still be correct in saying she's on ten songs, just that one of them is not on that album, but was recorded during that time.
Lol, blocked by what? I'm sure someone could upload a virus to the site as you could with any similar site, but I assure you, I didn't. It's safe, don't worry. (Oh, and of course I meant "My Heart Stood Still" in the post up above, not "Glad to Be Unhappy")
