Jill Gibson's vocals on the 2nd Mamas and Papas LP

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by johnsmusicbox, Mar 6, 2009.

  1. ilovetati

    ilovetati Forum Resident

    I'm a big fan of M+P (I'm only 23, but I love 60s music thanks to my father playing old records often when I was younger), but have always wondered which songs actually featured Michelle from their second LP's recording sessions. I've found this thread to be very informative, but wondered if you had found any new info since this post. I love Michelle and her voice and have always believed she was the one on Look Through My Window and Words of Love but, despite what Richard said here, it does sort of sound like Jill on the final version of Strange Young Girls (one of my favorite tracks). However, their voices are similar, so there's really no way of knowing for sure. Could it also be possible that they still used Jill's version despite Michelle recording her own versions of the vocals? And I wonder if all five singers might be heard on a few of the tracks that both ladies recorded vocals (such as No Salt On Her Tail). Any information would be greatly appreciated!
     
  2. John54

    John54 Senior Member

    Location:
    Burlington, ON
    I discovered It's As Easy As 1-2-3 two or three years ago and it's fantastic! One of a number of Where-Have-You-Been-All-My-Life '60s tracks I've found long after the fact.
     
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  3. ilovetati

    ilovetati Forum Resident

    I hope johnsmusicbox still posts here and can answer my questions!
     
    Plan9 likes this.
  4. johnsmusicbox

    johnsmusicbox Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'm still here! Good to meet you, ilovetati, always glad to meet fellow M&Ps fans. Unfortunately, I do not have any info on this matter beyond what's in this thread.

    Feel free to come check out my John Phillips appreciation group over on Facebook, of which Jill herself, along with many of John's friends and family, are members.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/83367538038/
     
  5. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Revisiting this:

    Wikipedia has this to say:

    "The album the group recorded with Gibson was pulled by the label to accommodate Michelle Phillips' return. No copies of Crashon Screamon All Fall Down featuring Jill Gibson were officially released to the public; the only copies circulating were pre-released copies.[27] The copies with Gibson are valuable collectibles today[45] and it is believed that anywhere from ten to twenty thousand went out.[30] These promo copies are the Crashon Screamon All Fall Down cover with the white picket fence picture of the band.[26]"

    "With Michelle Phillips back in the mix, several tracks were re-recorded for the second album. The LP was renamed simply as The Mamas & the Papas and it hit the stores in September 1966, with Michelle's image on the cover.[46]"

    Jill Gibson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia »

    That at least *suggests* that the promo LPs (mono? stereo? both?) contained different mixes from what eventually got released. But is that actually the case? While not impossible, it seems hard to believe that different mixes wouldn't have circulated or at least been discussed by now.

    Or did the promo LPs have the same audio as the released LPs?
     
  6. I think Jill had at least as much musical talent as Michelle but that's neither here nor there. Lots of people get where they are by being somebody's friend plus having enough talent not to be an embarassment.
     
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  7. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Also:

    Beyond the Billboard ad, I can't find *any* evidence online of an actual copy of Crashon. There's a Discogs entry, but there's nothing beyond a photo of the front cover, which looks like it may be a fan reconstruction (hard to see much in the Billboard scan, but it seems like the position of some of the lettering may be slightly different). No back cover, no labels, nothing.

    @Larry Geller indicates he saw a copy in a store years ago, but that's about it.

    Ten to twenty thousand promo copies? Where did they all go?
     
  8. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Surround sound lunatic

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    Luk, I swear to God that I held that LP in my hands in The House Of Oldies, in March, 1968. It was a day I will never forget in my life. It was my first visit to The Village alone with a friend (I was 15 years old). It was my first time that I ever saw or heard of UK imports, the first time I ever SAW a UK LP of any kind (the first time I saw Clairfoil). The first time I was informed of the fact that UK & US records were different. It was the first time I ever saw (or heard of) a Butcher cover (also the first time I saw UK Dylan GH, UK Mr. Fantasy, Rubber Soul, Revolver & Help). It was probably the most significant moment in my long life of music collecting. I remember it like it was yesterday. And the owner of the House Of Oldies handed me a copy of Crashon, saying "get a load of THIS". Jill Gibson totally freaked me out. The only thing I DON'T remember about this was what the back cover was, and what tracks were on it (I didn't have the 2nd LP yet, so I wouldn't have known the difference).
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
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  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I wasn't disputing that you saw it. It's just *really* weird that there's essentially no evidence of it online.
     
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  10. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Surround sound lunatic

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    It's weird that I've never seen another one in 48 years. In fact, that picture you posted is the only other evidence I've seen of its' existence. I've seen dozens of Butcher covers, however. I wonder if there are copies of Springboard (the original title for The Papas And The Mamas--I have a magazine ad for it) out there, ever.
     
  11. idleracer

    idleracer Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    Jill is (probably accidentally) featured on the cover of this compilation:

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Mylene

    Mylene Senior Member

  13. ilovetati

    ilovetati Forum Resident

    I'm constantly going back and forth on who appears in the released version of Strange Young Girls. Recording session notes say that Jill recorded first, but Michelle recorded over after she returned. Jill's vocals are said to appear on four tracks including Dancing Bear. I wonder, however, if they may have used all five voices on songs like Strange Young Girls. The vocals sound a lot like Michelle in Snowqueen of Texas, but also Jill in It's as Easy as 1-2-3, so who knows?

    Here's a filtered vocal I found:


    Michelle's lead in Snowqueen of Texas:
    THE MAMAS and THE PAPAS snowqueen of texas »

    Jill's filtered Dancing Bear vocals and Easy as 1-2-3
    "Dancing Bear" ACAPELLA & BACKING VOCALS MIX - The mamas & the papas »
    Jill Gibson - IT'S AS EASY AS 1, 2, 3 (1964) »
     
  14. Byrdsfan360

    Byrdsfan360 New Member

    Location:
    Denton, TX
    I became interested in Jill Gibson and her time in the mamas and papas when I read that autobiography about the band where Denny Doherty and some other dunhill recording guys said "she really wasn't a singer", "was out of her element", "just an actor playing a part", " had no chemistry with the band". Then I listened to it's as easy as 1-2-3 and her work with Jan and dean and thought she sounded pretty good. So I tried to find recordings of that album they made before they rehired Michelle and fired Jill to see if I could hear a difference and found this forum. I listened to the album they finally finished and released and I am sure that I hear Jill's voice on most of those songs. I actually think that she was an improvement on their overall sound. The female vocals sound much richer and fuller than their first album. I thought what a shame they didn't keep Jill on as a fifth member of the band after they hired Michelle back.
     
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  15. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Revisiting Even If I Could:

    So, the mono 45 and LP mixes aren't the same, but it's more confusing than that. This is a little out of order, but this is how things break down:

    Mono LP mix (from my needledrop of @David R. Modny's mono LP) - No "answer" vocals audible at all.

    Mono 45 mix (from the Real Gone collection) - Nearly identical to the mono LP mix, to the point I thought they must be same mix, until the point where the "answer" vocals are. They are *present* on the 45 mix, but *very* low in level. For example, at 0:33, you can really only hear a ghost of "just how you feel", the beginning of the line being buried by Denny's vocal. As far as I can tell, the rest of the vocals are identical. The only other mix difference I *think* I can detect is some slight additional echo near the end of the song on the 45 mix. I think.

    Stereo LP mix - The "answer" vocals are very prominent. However, they seem to be *different* answer vocals from the 45 mix. It's hard to tell definitively, since they are at so low of a level on the 45, but if you sync up the two mixes and lower the level of the right channel of the stereo mix so the answer vocals are at about the same level, it sounds like two different vocals to me. However, the rest of the female vocals *seem* to be identical.

    So, is it possible the recording went something like this?

    1) Michelle records vocals for entire song.
    2) 45 mix is made with answer vocals mostly, but not entirely mixed out. Possibly because Michelle was already on the way out?
    3) Jill overdubs new vocals with the group for the answer sections, but leaves the rest of the song untouched.
    4) With Michelle back in the group, and no time to record new vocals, answer vocals are mixed out entirely for the mono LP mix.
    5) Attention not paid to "lesser" stereo mix, girls' vocal track left up throughout song, leaving Jill's overdubs audible.

    Thus:

    Mono 45 mix - Michelle (faint answer vocals)
    Mono LP mix - Michelle (no answer vocals)
    Stereo LP mix - Michelle, plus answer vocals from Jill

    Thoughts? @johnsmusicbox?
     
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  16. John DeAngelis

    John DeAngelis Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY
    That looks like Michelle to me.
     
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  17. MGSeveral

    MGSeveral Augm

    Interview with Jill Gibson in this month's Record Collector. Seems a bit unfair if even she hasn't got a copy of "Crashon"..
     
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  18. JakeE123

    JakeE123 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Indiana
    Can’t one hear Michelle laughing during that studio session of “I can’t wait”?
     
    Hep Alien likes this.
  19. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Anyone else have thoughts on the vocals on Even If I Could?
     
    Hep Alien likes this.
  20. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Actually , I can help with this--

    From watching the tape, the "Palace" producers lucked out-- in the original mid-August footage, the band is in silhouette for Crosby's intro of them, and through a bit of good fortune, that intro ends on a medium shot of Bing... which pretty much necessitates a cut in order to properly frame the band as they start "Dancing Bear".

    That's where the edit point is. From there, the re-shot performance with Michelle kicks in. It concludes with a cutaway to an applauding audience, then goes to commercial.

    So how can you tell for certain? Well, the band may not have been lit much, but doing a still frame during Bing's intro very much reveals John sitting behind Bing, wearing a white shirt and a tie...:

    Mamas Papas - Hollywood Palace 9_17_66 LIGHTENED.jpg

    ...which of course, matches the outfit he's wearing in the still with Jill Gibson, that was shown above..:

    Mamas Papas original HP still - 8_1966 RESIZED.jpg

    ...and also this still:

    Mamas Papas another original HP still - 8_1966.jpg

    In the re-shot performance that was cut into the broadcast, he's wearing a black shirt and a silly hat.

    So-- one more mystery solved...

    - Kevin
     
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  21. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Also, if I can just give my opinion on the "Crashon Screamon..." LP--

    In spite of what some of the stories state, there's no way that thousands of these were sent out as promos. Given that the initial release info was listed in Bilboard's 8/20/66 issue, and we know that Michelle was reinstated around 8/23/66, my guess is that Dunhill may have started shipping advance copies to a few radio stations (almost certainly **mono** copies, by the way) but quickly stopped when they realized that the material on the LP was going to be changed, and the cover would be replaced. I would guess the large majority of copies that were pressed were scrapped.

    Although hardly exhaustive resources, that's the only way to explain the fact that there are apparently no images of an actual cover (or record) available, and no listings of any sales on eBay, Discogs or Popsike.

    - Kevin
     
  22. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Well, here's a bit of supporting proof for the theory that the records (**if** they were manufactured) were scrapped-- this 9/28/67 document is currently up for sale on eBay. The salient portion is in Paragraph 7:

    Mamas Papas - Document regarding Crashon Screamon LP costs.jpg

    - Kevin
     
  23. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Surround sound lunatic

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    I'll just repeat that I held a copy in my hands in The House Of Oldies in February, 1968. It was not for sale, just for showing off.
     
  24. phillyal1

    phillyal1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    philadelphia, pa.
    Hollywood Palace ? is their tape of this ?
     
  25. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I don't doubt your memory, Larry-- but it sounds as though what you held in your hands was one of the **excruciatingly few** copies to have survived...

    There are likely not more than a handful in existence. The document that I found is worded such that it sounds as though only the labels and slicks were printed, and they managed to stop the process before the actual initial run of records were manufactured.

    I would bet that we'd be much more likely to find the original D-50010 album mix as a test pressing, rather than a finished package.

    - Kevin
     

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