Jimi Hendrix Both Sides of the Sky - new album coming March 9, 2018

I think you're right about the 07/04 version, and we know for sure that the 09/04 version (at least the last part) is truncated in BSS.

As for the 'definitive' edit, I didn't try it yet, but had indeed the idea of replacing the missing parts from the 09/04 version by those of the 07/04.
Seems that it will be a tougher task than expected with regards to the difference in sound you mention.

Do you have any idea why these parts have been edited out ? Damaged tapes ?

 

Not sure. I might have the unedited version somewhere in my collection, but there's a whole bunch of things I have on cassette that haven't made the trip over to digital and I haven't listened to a tape in about 10 years.

 

The unedited 09/04 version (Douglas-mix) is flawless, if that's what you meant.

I was rather thinking of the multis.

I don't seem to remember any other mix of this version in circulation.

Either the multis are now damaged, or Kramer didn't like the parts as they were, which would be a weird decision, since this ending was so powerful unedited.

 

Yeah I meant I don't know if I've heard the entire April 9 version to know what was cut or why. My guess is there were parts they just wanted to trim out to make it sound better (like cutting a minute off the beginning of New Rising Sun on WCSB) but I don't know that for sure.

 

I personaly never heard the entire 09/04 version before BSS, but i'm only talking about the ending which we know for sure has parts edited out. (Because we have the Douglas mix of this ending to compare).

If it's a taste choice, then it's a bad choice IMO, because it doesn't flow/sound better at all.
You might be right, it could be the case, and that would be disappointing (but not very surprising).

 

I know I have the Douglas composite in digital form, I'll have to take a listen to the differences.

 

Oh wow, just listened to full track for the first time and you are spot on. Really sticks out. Awful.

I don't have an issue with Kramer editing Hendrix outtakes in principal. The problem is his edits are more often than not amerturish if not embarrassing.

There are several far worse than this. 10/11 AYE and 10/12 Red House from Winterland for example. Kramer edited out half of Jimi's Red House solo, nothing wrong with his playing either. So much for the crescendo Jimi was building.

 

Amateurish? Maybe I just haven't listened closely enough. I'm sure(?) that Kramer did the editing on the West Coast Seattle Boy box, and the three (3) Fillmore East tracks on WCSB from 12/31/69 (not sure which sets) are tight as a drum! (iirc) -- so much so, that I just *know* there have to be some edits in there -- and judicious ones at that. (Don't know what the circulating unedited versions sound like.) I'm talking about these...

Disc three (WCSB)
12. "Fire" (* Live at the Fillmore East, New York City, December 31, 1969) 4:41
13. "Foxey Lady" (* Live at the Fillmore East, New York, December 31, 1969) 6:29

Disc four (WCSB)
1. "Stone Free" (** Live at the Fillmore East, New York, December 31, 1969)

D0n't have my box in front of me, but the asterisks (from the Wikipedia page) denote that Fire and Foxey Lady are both "Previously unreleased alternate recording" -- where the double-asterisk on "Stone Free" means "Previously unreleased recording".

To be honest, these three tracks are among my favorites out of all of the Fillmore East material -- and I've always assumed Eddie's(?) judicious editing had a little to do with that (on top of the performances themselves, of course). The impact of "Fire" and "Foxey" being as to-the-point as they are, is really something -- in contrast to some of Jimi's performances that do get a little long in the teeth.

A good, tight edit -- even of live material -- can be a thing of beauty. Though I'll be the first to admit that's usually not the case, most of the time.

 

Wait, what unedited Douglas mix? Douglas tacked on a JHE version to the end of a BOG take - both from Record Plant sessions This was considered for Blues. The complete, or near complete versions of both were not available elsewhere.

People Hell and Angels uses the full BOG version.

Both Sides Of The Sky uses the full (with edits) JHE version that Douglas took the ending from.

Valleys Of Neptune uses different JHE version.

 

Took a listen now, are the "Hear My Train A Comin'"s the things that are cut? Along with some other guitar?

I thought those Red Houses seemed a little shorter than I remember, now I know why...

 

That's the one he's talking about, there are things missing from the BSOTS version that are on that version.

 

They're all from the 2nd set, arguably the weakest of the four. Fire isn't trimmed from what I remember, Stone Free is about 3 minutes shorter, Foxey Lady is cut in half due to some technical issues that extended the song for a LONG time. I think the "alternate" might be referring to the fact they are the two songs where there is color footage and it was synched up on the DVD with the audio from elsewhere.

 

All I know is that whenever I spin WCSB, I'm always blown away by those three Fillmore tracks -- more than I'm expecting. Maybe that set wasn't all that and a bag of chips, but their inclusion on WCSB was a big plus when I first heard them.

20 years ago I might have been adverse to very much editing, especially of live material. But now I'm often glad for it, to be honest.

 

Don't worry Chris.

I was only talking about the section used by Douglas on his BOG/JHE HMT combo, the ending of the JHE 09/04 version.

This ending has been edited by Kramer (as you also noticed it in your previous post) and that is what annoying me.

As you said : awful.

 

Foxy is cut in half? You sure you aren't thinking of a different show? Other than the Buddy Miles drum solo in Stone Free I don't think those tracks are edited.

 

How can you say that if you aren't familiar with both the edited and unedited versions? Those 3 tracks sound tight because they are good performances. Kramer's edits during the past decade often make the performances sound less tight. If he was making edits like he did on Midnight in 1972 I would be pleased.

 

Ah, I see now. Thanks for that.

 

My timing on the version from 12/31 is 13 and change but the song actually ends a little after 9 minutes, so it's cut by a little under 3 minutes. Stone Free on the box is 14:48, the one I have is 17:05 or so.

 

Huh, thanks for checking the run time. Curious what accounts for the missing 3 mins.

 

You're absolutely right of course (and not a trace of snark in me saying that either; I hold your opinion in high esteem around here).

But part of it was my assumption that they were THAT tight due to some editing. "Fire" at barely 4.5 minutes live, just seemed SO short (and uncharacteristic of most of Jimi's live performances), that I was just sure there was an edit. And the punch of "Foxey" (at a little over 6 minutes) -- or rather, my perception of the overall 'punch' of Foxey -- left me with that same impression. Been a while since I've listened to either one, but I seem to remember(?) that the main theme/head comes in with a big and really satisfying 'smack!' towards the last 1/3rd of each tune (I'm sure that's true of at least one of these two in question, maybe both?). And I always assumed that Eddie left out a bit of something that went on for a full 'nother minute or two -- and then crafted the edit right where that recapitulation of the theme/head comes back in. I know Jimi did that several of his arrangements all the time -- but the effect always seemed/felt heightened to me on both tracks from WCSB. Hence my guess that some trickery was at play (all to the good, though, if true).

And, that version of "Stone Free" -- which has a "Sunshine of Your Love" interlude (QUESTION: is that the only time he ever played "Sunshine..." as an interlude like that? - cuz, man howdy, does that every WORK!!) -- that version of Stone Free" just knocks me out cold EVERY time. I know this is totally just conjecture on my part (full confession, 100%), but I *know* how meandering some of those longer live versions of any number of Jimi's tunes often got to be. Not as meandering as Miles Davis live in the 70's, but still. So I've always assumed (I guess wrongly, from what you're saying), that this particular WCSB Fillmore version of "Stone Free"/"Sunshine..." had had a little tinkering too -- since the whole thing is just flawless, start to finish (iirc).

Lots of conjecture on my part though, I fully admit.

 

OK figured it out. Notice the WCSB version kind of fades out around 6:13 and the applause comes in. On the "other" one, the source switches to a lower quality one around 5:45 and a little before the 7 minute mark the guitar goes out of tune. Jimi soldiers on to finish the song, but by the end it's WAY out of tune.

 

One that jumps out at me is Voodoo Child from the Copenhagen 9/3/70 show. Probably my favorite live version of that song as well.

 

That whole show is incredible.

 

Yep

That's it : last chorus edited out, then 16 bars kept in, then the following and somewhat similar 16 bars edited out.

Maybe the best parts of the song that are long gone now.

Nothing tight here, just a bad decision (unless the multis were damaged).
Very sad.

 

The best hear My Train was the Berkeley rendition on Rainbow Bridge. Period.