Jimi Hendrix - Let's Talk About How We Would Have Put Together His Posthumous Albums!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by hodgo, Dec 8, 2017.

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  1. So in your opinion no one can honestly believe Voodoo Soup is superior to COL or RB without being contrary for the sake of it? That's a curious view. I can only answer for myself and this certainly isn't the case! You also don't believe a compilation released by AD 24 years after Jimi's death (with the benefit of hindsight) can have any more merit than a slapped together hurriedly released, compromised posthumous release in 1971. Both the albums of '71 were compromised due to Mike Jefferies' wishes and both feature either some unfinished (demo quality) or non-related to FROTNRS material (and a live cut too).
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  2. John Harchar

    John Harchar Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thanks for the welcome!

    There were a whole lot of other things going on at the time, no doubt. The death of Mike Jeffery is really the key event of that period. If he was still around, no need for Douglas. The deletion of Rainbow Bridge, In the West and War Heroes (and by default Loose Ends) from the catalog was the first dubious decision, whatever their thinking was regarding them was at the time. If they had wanted to undo some of Jeffery's tinkering, they could have created their own album(s) out of this material to pare away the tracks that weren't up to snuff. By getting rid of them all, it left them with the "need" to create more albums.

    None of the posthumous releases are ideal. Each of the eras after Jimi's death (Jeffery, Douglas, EH) have all fallen into the same trap of having a bunch of material and slowly dribbling it out. How they'd done it had their own bonuses and drawbacks. Some albums are definitely better than others, but there's something worth listening to on all of them (I happen to enjoy Loose Ends a lot). But some decisions are hard to justify. Even if you stipulate that the addition of later studio musicians was "ok" for 1975, the Bruce Gary tracks on Voodoo Soup were totally unnecessary. I think Cry of Love has to be towards the top of the list simply because for the most part it was the best of the material (it would have been better in the original version with Dolly and Room). I can't see preferring any of the Douglas albums to that one, but to each his own.

    Haven't had a chance to look but is there a thread out there comparing the originals and the redone versions of the Crash Landing and Midnight Lightning tracks? I think right now the only track on either of those I haven't heard in its original version is the Woodstock band version of Beginnings. It'd be interesting to take a fresh look: I listened to Somewhere last night in a couple of different versions and the Douglas one was an improvement over the Mitch dubbed version. Then I listened to Crash Landing with the background singers and...no.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  3. The problem I have with COL is just one of track selection and sequencing......er.....well, what else is there? :doh:
    They front loaded the album with the best three songs, after which it just kind of peters out for me. I've never been a fan of "My Friend" (from '68) but on the original LP the second side gets worse when it starts with Straight Ahead which clearly sounds unfinished and not quite fully worked out. I think Astro Man which follows is a bit of a throwaway and I can't imagine Jimi would have included that one on the next complete album. Apart from Angel which lifts the quality for a while the album then ends quite strangely with Belly Button Window - a real anticlimax if ever there was one. By contrast Voodoo Soup is a great album to listen to from beginning to end....for me anyway. It doesn't bother me if mostly everyone else is hung up on the remixing or drum substitutions. Well, I suppose I have Charles Shaar Murray for company here? :D
     
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  4. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Senior Member

    Location:
    The Southwest
    IIRC, Jeffery gave Kramer a directive to hold back "Room Full of Mirrors" and "Dolly Dagger" from his original COL sequencing to pad out "Rainbow Bridge." COL could have been a stellar album had Kramer not been directed to spread some key selections across two albums. Still, the omission of "Drifter's Escape" from either title is a curiosity, considering it was one of Jimi's most dynamic, nearly complete masters from the summer of 1970.
     
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  5. John Fell

    John Fell Forum Survivor

    Location:
    Undisclosed
    Well, Bleeding Heart was also omitted from Rainbow Bridge even though it was used for the movie soundtrack.
     
  6. Agreed on both counts!
     
  7. John Harchar

    John Harchar Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    In our alternative universe here's what could have been:

    The Cry of Love

    Side One

    Dolly Dagger
    Drifting
    Ezy Ryder
    Nightbird Flying
    Room Full of Mirrors

    Side Two

    Freedom
    Astro Man
    Angel
    In From the Storm
    Belly Button Window

    Rainbow Bridge

    Side One

    Earth Blues
    Stepping Stone
    Pali Gap
    Izabella
    Star Spangled Banner

    Side Two

    Look Over Yonder
    Bleeding Heart
    Beginning
    Straight Ahead
    Hey Baby

    War Heroes

    Side One

    Message of Love
    Somewhere
    Tax Free
    Stars That Play With Laughing Sam's Dice
    My Friend

    Side Two

    Midnight
    Power of Soul
    Taking Care of No Business
    51st Anniversary
    Drifter's Escape

    In The West

    Side One-1969

    I Don't Live Today
    Red House

    Side Two-1970

    Johnny B Goode
    Lover Man
    Hear My Train A Comin'

    Boy I kind of did this on the fly a bit, but these look pretty good! Gotta go make some playlists and see how these sound.
     
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  8. John Fell

    John Fell Forum Survivor

    Location:
    Undisclosed
    I would include the acoustic version of Hear My Train A Comin' on Rainbow Bridge replacing the live version. You could possibly include Gloria on War Heroes.

    Your track listing is better than what was ultimately on the finished product in my opinion.
     
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  9. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Senior Member

    Location:
    The Southwest
    I love the acoustic version, but the live version from Berkeley on the Rainbow Bridge soundtrack is a tour de force performance. In good conscience I could not omit it.
     
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  10. John Fell

    John Fell Forum Survivor

    Location:
    Undisclosed
    It is better served on In The West and they bumped tracks to War Heroes to include the live version.
     
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  11. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Senior Member

    Location:
    The Southwest
    Good point.
     
  12. John Harchar

    John Harchar Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    The acoustic HMTAC does need to show up somewhere eventually, perhaps Smash Hits V2 ;)
    If the Jimi Hendrix soundtrack hadn't come out, it actually would've made a nice opener to Loose Ends.

    His possible 1970-1971 output does lead to an interesting configuration of titles:

    Band of Gypsys
    First Rays of the New Rising Sun
    Rainbow
    Bridge

    Funny how that would've worked out.
     
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  13. Roberto899

    Roberto899 Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    Nothing curious about it. Crash Landing is not a Jimi Hendrix album. It is an Alan Douglass album featuring Jimi Hendrix. And yes, there is much more merit in the album say Cry of Love that has what Jimi wanted on tape vs. what AD wanted on tape.

    But let's go deeper.

    You seem to be saying AD's opinion has more merit than Mike Jefferies? That MJ "comprimsed" Cry of Love or Rainbow Bridge? I'm curious how you arrive at that. I'm curious how erasing parts from a song and replacing them with parts by musicians Jimi didn't know is not a compromise? AD's connection to Jimi is tenuous at best. AD hardly knew Jimi. MJ for all his issues at least knew Jimi and managed him over his career. How is AD better at deciding what should be done with Jimi's music vs. MJ?

    But let's look deeper at you say from an earlier post. I quote

    "I think many people forget what Douglas was actually brought in to do in 1975. Armed with that unenviable task and what was available in terms of tapes and technology of the day, I think he did a much better job than some give him credit for. I care not one iota about removed backing tracks or over-dubbing under those circumstances."

    Okay so you don't care if Jimi's work is erased and replaced. I don't understand this attitude, but okay I guess we can go with it. But then you say and I quote,

    "Tampering or unnecessary posthumous remixing for the sake of modernising music for the cookie cutter market, is another thing altogether."

    Well that's what AD did. Replace and tamper with Jimi's music to make it more "palatable" for "modern listeners." I fact he tampered with it so much on Crash Landing & Midnight Lighting, it's barely Jimi Hendrix. Did AD do a good job of overdubbing and replacing Jimi's music? From a technical standpoint, sure he did a great job. Are those songs still Jimi Hendrix. No they are not. And in a roundabout way you admit they are not Jimi Hendrix songs by reminding us in capital letters no less, that AD was a "RECORD PRODUCER". And at the end of the day, that's all Crash Landing is, a record produced by AD under his direction that features Jimi Hendrix. Crash Landing by Alan Douglass Featuring Jimi Hendrix would be a much more true title to that album.

    Now if you are an AD fan, nothing wrong with that. But to say say an album of AD material that happens to have Jimi's voice and a guitar part or to on it is superior to an actual Jimi Hendrix album like Cry Of Love is pure nonsense. In one breath you say it's okay to replace parts years later with musicians that had nothing to do with the original product, and in another breath you claim to have a problem with anything remixed or tampered with, which really comes off, with all due respect, as strange.
     
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  14. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Senior Member

    Location:
    The Southwest
    Interestingly enough, while Michael Jeffery did issue a directive to Kramer to spread material out over at least two albums, any artistic or creative compromises ultimately fell on the shoulders of Eddie Kramer because he oversaw the sequencing of both albums. He still had a lot of material to work with, and it was his choice to include "My Friend" on "Cry Of Love" over actual "First Rays" contenders/1970 era-recordings such as "Drifter's Escape" and "Lover Man." Also, the only "demo quality" track on either "Cry Of Love" or "Rainbow Bridge" is "Belly Button Window," which does contain Hendrix overdubs and a Hendrix mix from August 24, 1970 (one of the last tracks he personally worked on).

    And in fairness to "My Friend," which is a bit maligned on this forum, thematically, it does in a sense fit alongside some of the other material on "Cry Of Love" with its message of loneliness and isolation. Also, during the summer of 1970, Hendrix allegedly requested the master be retrieved from the tape vault for review as a possible inclusion for the project(s) owed to Reprise, which could explain why the song was on Kramer's radar during the fall of 1970.
     
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  15. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Senior Member

    Location:
    The Southwest
    You make some valid points regarding "Crash Landing" and "Midnight Lightning." For unsuspecting consumers in 1975, those albums must have sounded quite good, with well produced, largely finished and polished songs (although, some of it still sounds disjointed -- an observation I made when I first heard them and before I knew about their background). A stark contrast to Eddie Kramer including the working master of "Hey Baby" on "Rainbow Bridge" where he made sure to leave "is the microphone on?" to reveal the song's in-development and unfinished nature. Douglas had a massive ego and made producing Hendrix as much about him as it was about Jimi's music.

    I think you raise a very interesting perspective that "Crash Landing" and "Midnight Lightning" are 1975 commercial rock albums that feature Hendrix, but that are not really Jimi Hendrix albums. They showcase Hendrix compositions (although Douglas took writing credits on five tracks with "Crash Landing!"), Hendrix vocals, and Hendrix guitar work, but the songs are reworked with such significant 1974-circa musical overdubs and reconstructions that it becomes more of a collaborative project between Douglas and Hendrix tapes, rather than genuine archival Hendrix product.
     
  16. No, no, no, I think you're quoting me out of context here and mixing two entirely different arguments to defend your point. When I said I don't really support unnecessary tampering and remixing for the modern market I was referring more to examples like the recent Elvis remixes whereby perfectly good master recordings which have existed in the PD for some time are disassembled and then reworked / remixed with some gimmick, like an orchestra being added or a dance remix etc. I'm not talking about unfinished, largely unheard demo recordings by an artist who died before they could be worked on to completion / artist satisfaction. The "workprint" recordings, if you will, are fair game for remixing, re-recording or other substitutions in the context of "producing albums" back in the day. Today in the era of massive archival box set releases I agree that in hindsight this is no longer necessary as the majority of listeners are prepared to listen to rough unfinished recordings "as is" for the sake of historical accuracy and posterity. In this millennium we are far more purist it seems.

    I never said AD had a more relevant opinion than Jefferies either. I solely mentioned the latter in the context of him insisting that certain tracks (as PacificOceanBlue has elaborated on above) were held over for follow-up projects which in itself compromised the quality of the 'current' project.

    Again, if you can't understand some very simply principles, there is little point in continuing this line of conversation. When we look at Douglas we are looking at a different era when the vault was considered dry. You keep referring to my support for backing tracks being erased at will by Douglas but this in within the context of AD producing "new material" from unfinished work or demo stage recordings by Jimi. This has nothing whatsoever to do with your comparison with MJ interfering in the song inclusions on the first posthumous albums, which largely contained, as you admit, "what Jimi wanted on tape".

    Finally where oh where did I say "an album that happens to have Jimi's voice and a guitar part on it" is superior to COL? I never mentioned Crash Landing or Midnight Lightening in the same sentence as COL. I said, and I'll go down under the ground saying it, I personally think Voodoo Soup is a far better album to put on and listen to than COL. I prefer the song selection, the running order and the overall flow. So shoot me. I have been consistent in everything I've said. There is nothing strange about it unless perhaps you are a dyed-in-the-wool musical purist and believe that nothing other than a recording in the unfinished state it was left in, should ever be released.
     
  17. Purple Jim

    Purple Jim Senior Member

    Location:
    Bretagne
    Yes. "My Friend" (and "Belly Button Window") brought some much needed blues texture to an album which might otherwise have been too heavily reliant on straight rock numbers. COL was very nicely balanced and felt like a real album, rather than just a collection of songs (which was the problem with EH's "First Rays" thing).
    I think it's apparent that in late '69 to mid '70, Jimi was bashing out many (great!) songs but they were all in a similar register/style of straight, funky rock. His songwriting had seemingly lost that immense stylistic variety of his 66-68 compositions. OK, there was the ballad "Drifting" but it wasn't really a step on from what he had already done with "Wind Cries Mary", "May This Be Love", "Little Wing", "One Rainy Wish", "Castles Made Of Sand",...("Angel" had been on the boiler for a couple of years of course). "Hey Baby" was however a doozy. Then he had Mitch's "Beginning" for some jazz fusion texture. He might have finished off "Bolero", "Linda",... So not much variety in what he was getting down.
    We know that Jimi wasn't entirely satisfied with what he had recorded - hence his mission to get Chas back in to sort it all out and craft an album.
     
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  18. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    Which I'd have absolutely no problem with. That someone would do that would have zero bearing on whether I'd like it. I'd only care about what the finished product looks like. I share no "purist" beliefs, no beliefs in the sanctity of initial intentions, etc. I couldn't care less about anything like that, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the sounds you're hearing (or the painting you're looking at, etc.)

    Think of it this way: the sounds are going to be exactly the same whether you have the faintest idea who the artist is, who exactly played on it, etc. Someone might know nothing at all about the background of the music, the historical or social context, etc. In my opinion, we should judge music as if that were the case, because whether we know that stuff or not does not at all change the sounds coming out of the speakers. We should simply judge whether we like those sounds or not.

    Obviously I don't agree that the end result is terrible. The end result is some of my favorite music rather.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
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  19. .....which might very well have meant that some of the songs already recorded (and which would be highly prized in their "finished" form by some fans) might have been dropped altogether. I agree that he was in a bit of a stylistic rut at the time and that is why, I'm sure, some of the posthumous albums have had finished tracks spread out over multiple releases to prevent the albums being too repetitive in tempo or style.

    We'll have to agree to disagree about COL though. Even back in 1986 when I was lead to believe that it was Jimi's "final album" I had a hard time accepting that he signed off on it. For me personally it just doesn't quite hang together and is missing something important: Jimi himself overseeing it. COL can't hold a candle to any of the three masterful Experience albums in my own opinion. I can't imagine he would have allowed it to be released in that form. This is also true of every subsequent album including those released by Douglas and EH. It's an individual matter of opinion as to what anyone then likes or dislikes of the multitude of song packages that followed. No one is right or wrong with what they choose to like / listen to.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
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  20. pool_of_tears

    pool_of_tears Searching For Simplicity

    Location:
    Midwest
    My 2 cents....

    ...The material recorded from late 1969-Summer 1970, tentatively for First Rays, is something I liken to The Beach Boys' "SMiLE". It's a work-in-progress. The songs were there but not all were complete and mixed down, nor was the track list finalized. In other words, we'll never know what could've been, but we're close. I'd say that, with First Rays, Jimi was probably 85% there. And, like "SMiLE", First Rays is amongst its creator's finest work. Sadly, we'll never know where could've or would've gone, in terms of musical direction.
     
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  21. fredhammersmith

    fredhammersmith Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec
    Love this thread.

    So there is just a remaining gap, if I am not mistaken. The 1969 sessions, after May 21st, and before August 28th?
     
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  22. jhm

    jhm Forum Resident

    Those would be the so called "Shokan Sessions" mostly done to prep for the Woodstock performance with a new band. The period has been well represented on fan comps but I don't believe any of it has been released officially (unless you count "This Flyer" as official).
     
  23. Purple Jim

    Purple Jim Senior Member

    Location:
    Bretagne
    Hang on, your name isn't Trump, is it?

    The fact is that when it came out, I knew exactly which artist it was - my favorite artist - and it the album sounded friggin' awful. A tasteless joke of an album. An insult.
    I'm very pleased that it and soon went out of print (having received a universal thumbs down).
     
  24. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    Well, we know that lots of people rag on it already.

    We should also know that some people love it. :wave: :love:
     
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  25. Purple Jim

    Purple Jim Senior Member

    Location:
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    Oh I know some people love it.
     
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