John Lennon "Milk & Honey" discussion

I was elated in 1984 when the late John Lennons voice boomed through my car stereo singing Nobody Told Me. Great tune!

This was when I first learned they had a posthumous studio album in the can. John & Yoko Milk & Honey. What a gift.

After listening to it I thought . This is great but they really should have polished up the tracks with overdubs & mixes. These tracks nice as they are, too unfinished.

Thoughts opinions discussion

 

At what point do you do this?
The tracks were recorded as works in progress while John was alive.
I know that some of George's tracks on Brainwashed were overdubbed and finished off by Jeff Lynne and Dhani after George's death. But who would/should have done that for John?
I wouldn't want Yoko further embellishing them with her vocalizations. Sean was way too young at the time to contribute. Julian could have, but I don't believe his relationship with Ono was good at the time.

Yoko did ultimately embellish Grow Old With Me by working with George Martin on a string arrangement. It is very nicely done, but that original recording was so poor that the embellishment didn't make it much more listenable. (Damn that beat box that Lennon used!)

No, I much prefer having these songs as we got them, and as far as John had put them on tape up to the time of his death.

 

I completely agree. It was what it was: the final document of John Lennon as a recording artist. Even if the studio musicians "finished" the tracks off, the final product would NOT have been Lennon's. It's been written and often said how he knew exactly what he wanted his records to sound like in the studio. had the musicians put their finishing touches on these recordings, they would have sounded more 'complete", yes..but not as John would have wanted them to sound. I'm happier with the unfinished tracks as they were while he, himself, was in charge than i would have been with someone else finishing them off.

 

I like the unpolished sound. I combined these tracks with the John tracks from Double Fantasy Stripped down and I have my perfect raw final cd from John.

 

Well those are valid points. I don't agree with you however.

In answer I would say producer Jack Douglas, should have overseen the session men tightening or embellishing their parts. I think some safe ba ckround vocals should have been added and new mixes. I think they should have stopped there.

Lennon gave Phil Spector cart Blanche on the let it be tapes. I think Douglas would have avoided the grandiose Spector work method. Douglas ain't no slouch. He's produced Aerosmith and many others. Douglas is also a visiting lecturer professor on recording.

 

I've always liked the album. Nobody Told Me is a great tune.

 

I've heard other people say that same thing. Here on the forum. I'm saying the opposite bring the Milk Honey tracks up to the level of the stripped DF tracks. Then we'd be cookin

 

I remember hearing "Nobody Told Me" on the radio (WPLJ) upon its release in early 1984. I vividly remember hearing it while with my parents in their car while driving across the Brooklyn Bridge heading into Manhattan. It was pretty exciting hearing John's voice on a "new" song at the time.

Anyway, I kind of like Milk and Honey for what it is. It's not a fair comparison with "Brainwashed" as George was well aware that his time left in the material world was short and most likely left some instructions on what he wanted done with those tracks. John did not have the "luxury" of time to give instructions on what to do with the Milk and Honey material prior to his tragic death. I'm sure Jack Douglas may have known something of John's intentions but I like that it was released largely as John had left it. It's pretty darn good regardless of it being unfinished.

 

The thing that struck me when I first heard Milk and Honey was what a great album we should have got in 1980. Instead we were given half an album and a heap of dross. Then the same again in '84. Unforgivable.

 

I suppose that the big difference between 'Milk and Honey' and 'Brainwashed' is that George left detailed instructions to Jeff and Dhani, whereas John of course never had the chance to do that.

 

what a cool idea. I will steal it

 

We can fix that by putting Yoko on one CD and John's stuff on another. With modern home CD burning. If you take milk and honey tracks combine them with the stripped DF tracks it sort of works. Kind of. Then are the 2 Lennon threetle tracks. It gets deep

 

There are actually some pretty specific notes from Lennon on songs which were later used for 'Milk & Honey' as well. This is on a list with a potential song selection/tracklist for his comeback album, with instructions to possibly Jack Douglas. For 'Borrowed Time' for example he wrote down something about the horns he had in mind. He also referred the band to this during the recording, namely the Isley Brothers' "Twist and Shout" and "Spanish Twist" and he hummed/scatted bits for it.

 

Forgive Me My Flower Princess would have likely been changed or dropped, judging from the studio discussion. I actually like it quite a bit. I like the overall loose recording of John's songs, sounds honest at least.

 

I'd say Jack Douglas did the best production of Lennons solo career

 

Nobody Told Me is my favorite late-period John. Love the guitar outro. And the video is a smile.

 

We're all entitled to our opinions here, so I have no problem with what you like.
If you want embellishment on some of John's unfinished songs - you've got examples: Free As A Bird, Real Love, and Grow Old With Me. Personally, I don't really care much for any of those "finished" recordings. And Milk and Honey stands up as an album (well as half an album) as it is. And as others have said, Nobody Told Me actually sounds better to me as a somewhat raw and unpolished recording. I think more studio massaging of that one (even by Lennon himself) may have ruined the feel of it.

And I agree with you that Jack Douglas did a great job on Double Fantasy. But I don't want him doing any further polishing of Milk and Honey.

 

The surround mixes of these (and Double Fantasy, and well, the rest of it) on the Lennon Legend dvd really bring out the strength in the rhythm section which I have always thought sounded extremely lame on the stereo version. Certain bass frequencies sound shaved off to me....but in surround they totally kick booty.

 

Regarding all the comments about Jack Douglas, remember that shortly after Double Fantasy was released, there was some kind of falling out between him and Yoko Ono and at least in its original release, IIRC his name appeared nowhere on Milk And Honey, which was credited (IIRC) as having been produced by John and Yoko.

I just took those songs at face value when I first heard them. It's good to have them. It's too bad that's all there was. Well, never mind the music, it's too bad Lennon had his life yanked out from under him and he was taken from his family in the horrible manner he was. But that's another subject altogether.

Yoko's songs are supposed to have been done later -- like a few years later, right? Were they at least written and maybe demoed by 1980 (aside from "Let Me Count The Ways")?

"Nobody Told Me" rocks. I wish we could have heard what would have come next.

 

John had recorded horns for many of the Double Fantasy tracks but chose not to use them in the end .

 

I remember reading within a week or two of Lennon's death that another LP's worth of tracks existed. So by the time it was released, I was wondering what was taking so long. The fact that it appeared on a different record label gave me a good guess.

I'm in the camp of don't mess with what was already there with overdubs or whatever. The tracks are not finished, but would suffer with tinkering. There were rumors that Ono's songs were overdubbed/rerecorded. Don't know what the prevailing feeling is these days regarding that.

 

No I'm not suggesting Jack Douglas embellish Milk & Honey now. The time to do that was 1984. The examples of you not caring for Free As A Bird and Grow old w me. Is not really a fair comparison. Those were poorly recorded home demos on a 2 track or cassette machine.

I agree with the idea Nobody Told Me sounds good even unfinished. The rest of them not so much. To a hardcore Lennon fan it's alright. But to the public at large, I think they want a professional sounding record.

 

The thing that always confused me about the Milk And Honey tracks is that they were alternately called "demos" and/or "unfinished", but post overdubs had already been done one some of them. They weren't all simple, unadorned takes. Additional musical elements were added to some of the songs - presumably during John's lifetime. So, I can accept that they were unfinished. But they were much more than demos.

"(Forgive Me) My Little Flower Princess" was obviously the least formed track. But it was in the recording stage, so it may have been intended to be an unadorned track all along. He had other more fully developed songs that he had not chosen to work on, so it seems that 'Princess' may have been more important (and possibly closer to what John ultimately intended, despite its seemingly unfinished condition) than some of the others we didn't hear until the Lost Lennon Tapes.

It's really too bad "Grow Old With Me" was never performed (or at least recorded) by John in the studio.

 

I prefer this album to Double Fantasy.

 

Well Chief Lennon insisted on working quickly after say Abbey Road. He did Imagine in 2 weeks. It's miraculous Douglas got Him to agree to the six or eight weeks spent on DF and Milk and Honey.

Douglas and the band, without going overboard could have overdubbed better tighter better recorded versions of their existing parts. Overdubbed just a few more things. Added some key background vocals without adding strings and all that.

Some people say a studio version of Grow old w me was recorded. I asked J Douglas he said that's not true but who knows