Following a wonderful discussion about Blue, we move on in our series to Joni Mitchell's fifth album. Sandwiched in between Joni's most critically acclaimed album (Blue) and her most commercially successful album (Court & Spark), For the Roses is a unique and beautiful experience all its own. Previous threads in this series Joni Mitchell: "Blue" Song by Song Thread Joni Mitchell: "Ladies of the Canyon" Song by Song Thread Joni Mitchell: "Clouds" Song by Song Thread Joni Mitchell: "Song to a Seagull" Song by Song Thread For the Roses Album Notes Released November 1972 Woodwinds and Reeds: Tommy Scott Bass: Wilton Felder Drums: Russ Kunkel Percussion: Bobbye Hall Strings: Bobby Notkoff Harmonica: Graham Nash Electric Guitar (Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire): James Burton Rock 'n' Roll Band (Blonde in the Bleachers): Stephen Stills Producer: Joni Mitchell Sound and Guidance: Henry Lewy Recorded at A&M Studios- Hollywood, California Art Direction/Design: Anthony Hudson Photography: Joel Bernstein Direction: The Geffen Roberts Co. All songs composed by Joni Mitchell For the Roses is the fifth studio album by Canadian singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell, released in November 1972, between her two biggest commercial and critical successes – Blue and Court and Spark. Despite this, in 2007 it was one of 25 recordings chosen that year by the Library of Congress to be added to the National Recording Registry. It is Mitchell's first, and so far only, album to accomplish this feat.[2] It is perhaps best known for the hit single "You Turn Me On, I'm a Radio", which Mitchell wrote sarcastically out of a record company request for a radio-friendly song. The single was indeed a hit, reaching #25 on the Billboard Hot 100 charts, becoming Mitchell's first top 40 hit released under her own name (as a songwriter, several other performers had had hits with songs that she had written). "Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire" — a menacing and jazzy portrait of a heroin addict — and the Beethoven-inspired "Judgment of the Moon and Stars" were also popular. Background Some of the songs were inspired by Mitchell's 1970-1971 relationship with James Taylor. Despite his difficulties, Mitchell evidently felt that she had found the person with whom she could pair-bond in Taylor. By March 1971, his fame exploded, causing friction. She was reportedly devastated when he broke off the relationship.[3] By November 1971, he had taken up with Carly Simon, whom he married a year later. Songs (From Wikipedia) "Banquet" describes a metaphorical table from which "some get the gravy / Some get the gristle... and some get nothing / Though there's plenty to spare". In the sprightly "Barangrill", Mitchell uses the hunt for an elusive roadside eatery as a metaphor for the quest to "find herself", enjoying the journey, but with increasing impatience about reaching her destination. "Lesson in Survival" is the first of the love songs, about the longing for greater privacy, a sense of isolation, the frustration of incompatibility, and a love for nature. "Let the Wind Carry Me" contrasts thoughts of a more stable, conventional life, based partly on Mitchell's own adolescence, with the need to live with minimal constraints upon one's freedom. The title song is a self-portrait exploring the frustration and sadness of being a celebrity, dealing with the challenges of fame and fortune. The second side opens with "See You Sometime", which deals with fleeting feelings, including jealousy and romantic competition. "Electricity" extols the simplicity and serenity of the quiet country life against the way in which people in modern society think of themselves unconsciously as machines, and is thought to be motivated by a particular relationship triangle she was experiencing at the time. "Woman of Heart and Mind" is a portrait of a flawed lover and the complexities of being emotionally involved. Critical Reception The album was critically acclaimed, with The New York Times saying "Each of Mitchell's songs on For the Roses is a gem glistening with her elegant way with language, her pointed splashes of irony and her perfect shaping of images. Never does Mitchell voice a thought or feeling commonly. She's a songwriter and singer of genius who can't help but make us feel we are not alone."[8] Writing for Rolling Stone, Stephen Davis applauded the singer's ability to explore a variety of emotional perspectives, sometimes in the course of one song: "Her great charm and wit, her intense vocal acting and phrasing abilities (the way she chooses to deal with a single word can change the feeling of an entire song) and the sheer power and gumption of her presence combine to bring it all off and make it shine."[9] For the Roses was named the seventh best album of 1972 in Robert Christgau's year-end list for Newsday.[10] In his review for Creem, he said the music lacked the liveliness of Blue's "All I Want" and the lyrics' insularity diminished her voice, but he ultimately regarded the album as a "remarkable work" and the year's aesthetically boldest record. "Mitchell has integrated the strange shifts of her voice into an almost 'classical' sounding music", Christgau wrote, calling it "hypnotic when you give it a chance to work".[11] Contemporary Reviews "For The Roses" is undoubtedly not only Joni's most important album to date, but her best. It sums up in poignant, emotive and brilliant images Joni's own position in the rock world - certainly not a unique one. The struggle within her which she spoke to me about earlier this year, is pin-pointed in this collection. As far as Joni's concerned, "For The Roses" is a natural extension from "Blue", her last album. The reasons that in my mind it is a set so far superior to anything she's ever done, may stem from the fact that all the numbers here were written during one long year in the wilds of Canada with no outside distractions. Certainly the songs have a grit, an incredible depth about them that has never been so apparent in her work before." Sounds Magazine, 1972 "The culmination of Joni's talent rests in her execution of her poetry through her music and voice. Since many of the songs are sad, she uses the piano to accent the plaintive; but she reserves her guitar for some of the more cheerful tunes. The songs themselves are brilliant constructions, each brought to its individual fulfillment through Joni 's soaring voice. A Joni Mitchell album is, for me, a personal experience, wherein I feel the intensity of the pain and grow with her to find the inner strength to return, a bit less naive, to face the pain that love will sometimes bring. I treasure her albums above all in my ever expanding collection. For Joni really lets one see into the depths of her heart and gently lets her know that we all share the pain." Brown Daily Herald, 1972 "One of the reasons Miss Mitchell is able to produce works of merit so consistently is her willingness to explore and then honestly reveal - rather than soften, filter or glamorize - her emotions and experiences, both the joys and, more importantly, the sorrows. She is able to face her disappointments in love and deal with them in an instructive way in song. Several of the 12 songs on the For the Roses album (among them "Lesson in Survival," "Woman of Heart and Mind" and "See You Sometime") deal with moments of defeat or insecurity in an open, honest way that few other major writers could duplicate. In "Lesson in Survival," for instance, she tells about the inadequacies a lover brought out in her: "Your friends protect you/ Scrutinize me/ I get so damn timid/ Not at all the spirit/ That's inside of me."" Los Angeles Times, 1972 "She had been known for beauty of voice and lyric, smoothness of styling. For The Roses is utterly unsettling, even disturbing. It's not for unsympathetic ears seeking melodic bliss. The album jangles the nerves with its sadness and undercurrent of strife. Tension ripples through the 11 songs, not so much in the sharp words but in her phrasing, in the subtle harshness of her moods. She's more sophisticated but paradoxically her development has fractured her sense of direction, her grasp on freedom, reflecting a society that's losing its sanity. The moving lyrics of Banquet reflect that, while Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire explores in rich images the lure and trap of drug addiction. Three pieces including the title song are witty yet bitter comments on the transience of both love and the vicious music world where idols are built in weeks, smashed in days." Toronto Star, 1972
I will just be tagging everyone who participated in the previous thread (in this case, Blue) from now on. The list was getting very long! @Ostinato @qwerty @Quakerism @Sear @Terry @EddieMann @bartels76 @Tommy Jay @mkolesa @jkauff @Dr. Pepper @Socalguy @chrisblower @blair207 @Sordel @DirkM @Cokelike- @Dylancat @Rose River Bear @Ignatius @Planbee @townsend @VU Master @All Down The Line @lennonfan1 @Hexwood @oxegen @bob_32_116 @DrJ @audiotom @drbryant @Colocally @ZenArcher @HenryFly @Liam Brown @MichaelXX2 @yesstiles @Dr-Sardonicus @BrutandCharisma @Johan1880 @Evan L @SteveS1 @DocBrown @Aquastor @Fender Relic But please I encourage *everyone* to participate! Also worth noting that this is one of two Joni Mitchell albums (along with Hejira) that the great Dr. Pepper ran a song by song thread for way back ten years ago in 2008. Here's that thread if you want to see what people said back then: Dr. Pepper's "For the Roses" Song by Song As always, we will use the first day of the thread to discuss the first track ("Banquet") as well as thoughts on the album as a whole. Track 1: "Banquet" Come to the dinner gong The table is laden high Fat bellies and hungry little ones Tuck your napkins in And take your share Some get the gravy And some get the gristle Some get the marrow bone And some get nothing Though there's plenty to spare I took my share down by the sea Paper plates and Javex* bottles on the tide Seagulls come down and they squawk at me Down where the water skiers glide Some turn to Jesus And some turn to heroin Some turn to rambling round Looking for a clean sky And a drinking stream Some watch the paint peel off Some watch their kids grow up Some watch their stocks and bonds Waiting for that big deal American Dream I took my dream down by the sea Yankee yachts * and lobster pots and sunshine And logs and sails And Shell Oil pails Dogs and tugs and summertime Back in the banquet line Angry young people crying Who let the greedy in And who left the needy out Who made this salty soup Tell him we're very hungry now For a sweeter fare In the cookie I read "Some get the gravy And some get the gristle Some get the marrow bone And some get nothing Though there's plenty to spare Javex is a brand-name of cleanser/bleach, used for sanitizing, among other things. It is a Canadian product, but apparently is also distributed in certain American areas. Rick In Belcarra adds: Lest you think that we Canadians are in the habit of gratuitously throwing our bleach bottles into the sea: These large empty plastic bottles and others of similar shape and size are commonly attached, with long lengths of nylon rope, to crab and shrimp traps so that they can be found easily for retrieval. They occasionally break loose and can end up on beaches such as the ones near Joni's hide-away on the Sunshine Coast of B.C.
This is the first album of Joni's that I really love. I'm the kind of Joni fan that considers her Hejira album to be much better than Blue and her journey towards that incredible album begins with For the Roses IMO. The arrangements are beginning to be more complex and the songs more orchestrated. Favorite song on the album is probably Barangrill, but Banquet is a highlight too.
For the Roses For the Roses is one of my top two favorite Joni Mitchell albums, along with Hejira. I sort of vacillate between the two as my ultimate favorite, depending on my mood, the time of year, the time of man, etc. However, my connection with For the Roses is one of the most deeply personal connections I have with any album I've ever heard. After getting into Joni with Blue, Court & Spark and a few compilations (Hits and Dreamland) while I was in high school, it was during my college years that I really delved deep and listened to the whole collection and became a massive fan. I'm not sure how much to share here...Music was very much my greatest friend when I was in college. I went to a great school and got a great education (and worked very hard) but college was not a great time in my life. I just didn't fit in at my university and I wound up in a very lonely place and my depression was a very real thing. Music was 100% there for me. In the spring of my junior year, I was at the lowest point I've probably ever been in my life and it was For the Roses in particular that kept me going. I might not be here now if not for this record. It was profound and important and it continues to be that for me. Why this record and not any of her others? I don't know. It was just exactly what I needed at the time and I will always have a very special bond with For the Roses because of that. The album itself is an absolute work of art. This is where we can really begin to hear jazz textures coming into Joni's songwriting and arrangements and on this album she brings in woodwinds, which beautifully compliment her piano and guitar. Her voice is also just starting to deepen and getting that huskier tone to it from all of her smoking and she often sings in a more medium register on this album, which I find just beautiful. I love her voice the most between 72 and 77. It's just the right mixture of girlishness and womanhood. The album was written when Joni went into isolation in Canada and "got back to the garden" and there is a deep intimacy to it--wit and honesty that she uses to comment on her relationships, the industry and all the ways she has gotten away from the visions and feelings of her childhood. It isn't entirely bitter, though. Joni always had a way of getting edge and grit into her music without becoming a complete cynic or miserable person. There is lots of color on this album--love, joy, humor, melancholy, sweetness, grief, insecurity... The writing touches on concepts that are wider in scope than certainly Blue (which was sooo laser-focused on herself and her own life) but, as always, she views them through her own particular lens and personality. (Ugh...another long, endless post from PW! Sorry!) Onto Banquet I've always thought this such a perfect choice to open the album. It has a very bare arrangement compared to much of the rest of the album. It's just Joni and piano, but she instantly welcomes us to a laden dinner table and a conversation/exploration with her. The banquet table, of course, doesn't look the same for everyone and Joni starts the album by ruminating on this fact and all the ways people try to find fulfillment and 'full bellies' in the modern world. It sets up many of the major themes of the album and sees Joni heading down to the seaside to think about her circumstances (what she did in real life) and seeing all the ways humans are marking and touching the landscape and the beauty of that seaside. That is both literal, I think, and a figurative expression of the ways that we tend to take beautiful things and add some nastiness to them. And we're all ready for the 'sweeter fare' promised in a fortune cookie, but reality keeps coming. A brilliant introduction.
Looking forward to all comments and insights on this album in particular. I enjoy this album. But it has never quite grabbed me in the same way as Clouds or Blue or Court or Hejira. On the recent thread here about favorite Joni albums, I was a bit surprised to see a fair amount of people name this one as their favorite album of hers. I havent been listening to the albums during the previous discussions (I know and love the first four so well), but I will this time.
As big of a Joni fan as I am, this album still hasn’t clicked for me yet. I love certain tracks—“For the Roses,” of course, “Barangrill,” “See You Sometime,” even “You Turn Me On”—but it just hasn’t clicked outside of those tracks. I don’t know if it gets lost in the mix being right between Blue and C&S but I really ought to give it another chance. It’s the only ‘70s Joni that I’m not totally in love with. Btw, will these album by album threads extend to Shine? I hope so since joni’s Later work often gets forgotten.
Finally, the great For the Roses. I recall the previous Hejira song-by-song thread, but not the one for this album. "Banquet" is OK, though four of the next five songs are in my all-time Joni top 20, so always a lot to look forward to when playing this album. Pretty drab album cover, especially by her standards. Apparently, Joni wanted to use the nude shot that I think appears inside the LP (I only have the CD, and I don't think it's in the booklet, though I rarely look at liner notes), but her manager Elliot Roberts said she probably wouldn't like having $5.98 stamped on her ass. For a whole different take on "Banquet":
I never understood why this album is overshadowed by "Blue." To me it is every bit as good, and even shows a progression in her songwriting toward the second phase of her career - sort of a transition from bare folk arrangements to a more sophisticated style. It's the album I should choose if narrowed down to one choice.
Glad to see interest in this album, which I think is often very overlooked. I hope our discussion proves fruitful and interesting for fans old and new alike! Yes, we are going all the way through to Shine. I love the cover! I love seeing all that beautiful green nature. Yes, the shot with Joni's bare rear end is on the gatefold on the vinyl. A lovely shot, like Joni in Eden but I agree it wouldn't have worked on the front!
I recall that Geffen told her something along the lines of “Do you really want a ‘$4.99’ slapped across your a$$?”
Here's the 1972 Carnegie Hall version. As I've posted probably a dozen times, this show is the only Joni archive thing I'd REALLY want to see cleaned up and released. Officially released, that is. Great to hear some For the Roses songs before the album was even out. And interesting to hear people applauding new songs instead of using them as an excuse to go buy beer or get rid of the last one they drank.
This album arrived at a very interesting time for Joni. After her taste of fame and adoration, she retreated to the “wilderness,” as she called it, of British Columbia. She had an old TV set but not much else. Here, retreated from the bustle of the industry and from her previous loves, she wrote what I consider her most scathing critiques of the music biz and of her lost loves. Still, there are bits of classic Joni character studies in “Barangrill.” Not as analytical as the ones that would follow in C&S, Hissing, and Hejira, not to mention Don Juan, but it’s a turning point album. Musically, this album is also a turning point. Here, Joni is starting to experiment with different musical instruments and arrangements, thanks to Tom Scott, later of the LA Express who would back Joni on 1974’s Court and Spark, as well as the ensuing tour. It’s around this time that she realized that the folks from the Section (who backed up James and Carole) were becoming insufficient to her, unable to recreate the sounds in her head. So, this album—while sometimes forgotten among the two giants that preceded and followed it—is a pivotal album full of the directness and beauty fans had come to expect, exploring new musical territory, yet still grounded in her acoustic roots for much of the album. It shows her at a crossroads with the fame game—she sings incorporate the themes she had explored even back in “For Free”: why does fame come to some and not others? What’s the line between needing to express myself but not be a deity for the masses? Why is the industry set up as a horse race? Am I cut out for this? Can I just be myself? These questions had been expired before and would be addressed later in her career, too—“Boho Dance”, “Song for Sharon,” “Number One,” “Turbulent Indigo”...—but here, especially in the title track, she bares these tough questions about the distribution and reconciliation of fame and power with an urgency that hadn’t been seen before.
I rarely recall where I bought a particular CD, but when I was discovering Joni's music I remember hesitating buying this album because the cover didn't do anything for me. Dumb, I know. The store? Circuit City. Remember them?
Fun fact: this was recorded with the intention of being released officially but Joni didn’t approve the results.
As much as I can appreciate her earlier albums, this is the album where my real interest in Joni starts. Banquet is such a beautiful opener. “Some turn to Jesus and some turn to heroin”
I'm hoping for news of more vinyl reissues from Joni's catalog. Rhino did such a fantastic job with the titles they have done, it would be great to see the Debut, Clouds, and For the Roses given the same treatment.
In the comments section of some blog post I read about Carnegie 1972, someone who was supposedly there wrote that she said during the show that this was going to be her next album. (Apologies for that exhausting, yet probably grammatically-correct, paragraph) I always assumed it wasn't released at the time because Carole King and Chicago had recently put out live Carnegie albums. Not sure why Joni didn't like it. Yeah, it's not super-tight, which is to be expected with a lot of really new material in the set. But that's what makes it interesting--more interesting IMO than her two official live albums.
To paraphrase another reviewer, I’ve always thought of For the Roses as a great album sandwiched between two brilliant ones. The thing about Mitchell is that her sound and style changed for every one of her albums, certainly after Blue. Her genius couldn’t be contained to any single musical genre. She constantly explored new ways of expressing herself. Early on it was through unusual guitar tunings and some vocal acrobatics. Later, she moved on to different arrangements and production formats, with backing bands and more subtle vocal inflections. She essentially invented her music to fit her poetry. Every album after Blue was a departure, musically, from the previous one. Many times, my musical tastes weren’t ready for the changes. When FTR came out, I was moving in a different, more rock oriented, musical direction. I know there’s treasure in FTR. I just didn’t have the patience to fully appreciate it at the time. I probably haven’t listened to it all the way through for 30 years. Maybe that’s why I don’t think of it as being quite as strong as Blue, Court and Spark and others. I’m giving it a fresh listen for this thread. Thx Parachute Woman!
The Rolling Stone review by Stephen Davis from January 1973 is excellent. Joni Mitchell's For the Roses: It's Good for a Hole in the Heart It's lengthy, but I encourage you to read it if you are interested. A nice breakdown on the album with some very nice description. Here's a nice excerpt: "Eloquence is going cheap these days and there's good music to he heard all over. When the two come together, as in this woman, the appreciative mind can boggle and stall, its attention riveted. As a musician she uses a certain kind of sprung rhythm and lyrical beauty that is transcendingly, touchingly romantic without ever being common. There are no ordinary tears shed here. As a poet she has a refined, working knowledge of the functions of free verse, with its basis of boundless expression here fitted to melodies like fingers to a glove. The lyrics as printed on the sleeve stand strongly, linear, by themselves. Individual songs interlink, and For the Roses is constructed like the cleverest of novels - stories within stories within stories. The first cut is a prologue, the last an impulsive, almost disjointed epilogue. In between is a cycle dominated by a fiercely independent perspective, modern Everywoman's, but one woman's all the same." And he ends asking: "Got a hole in your heart? For the Roses will cost you about four bucks and it won't cure you, but ****, it's good salve."
In the late 90s I bought some Joni Mitchell CDs. I had recorded much of her music on tape but had not just sat and listened to FTR all the way through in a long time. At some point I had tears in my eyes; the music was just so freakin' beautiful. I think this was the only time I had ever been that overwhelmed by an album's beauty. Around this time I read on the Joni Mitchell Discussion List that Judy Collins had wept after hearing some of Joni's songs, I guess around the late 60s. Through the JMDL I was then becoming aware there were many others just as fanatical or more so about Joni.
I bought For The Roses soon after it came out, listened to it quite a lot, and was very fond of it. Then when Court And Spark was released it eclipsed For The Roses in my view and became my new favorite. Then when Hissing came out, it became my favorite Joni album. The first time I heard Hejira it surpassed them all, and is still my favorite Joni album. I guess to me, For the Roses will always seem like a sort of transition album, obviously very different than Blue, a new direction charted by Joni and a new direction for popular music in general, really. I've always thought that she continued along those lines with the next 3 albums, though Hejira was yet another departure for her, and at least to me, different from anything else she had done before. In the last 25 years I've listened to Court and Spark a few times, Hissing much more often, and Hejira countless times but haven't played For The Roses in its entirety at all. I'm overseas now and away from my record collection but remember many of the songs well, and will listen to the P.W.'s youtube links as we move along. I probably won't write as much about this album as I did Blue, but I'm looking forward to hearing it again. I'm kind of curious how I'll react to it after all this time, I really don't know! The cover art was fabulous and the basis of many teenage and 20-something daydreams for me. So, I look forward to re-discovering this album, and reading everyone's thoughts about it. (Aside to P.W. - I'd hoped to ask you a question about a much later Joni album but was unable to PM you. If you don't mind, maybe contact me through the site?)
Next up: Track 2: "Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire" Cold blue steel out of money One eye for the beat police Sweet Fire calling "You can't deny me Now you know what you need" Underneath the jungle gym Hollow grey fire escape thief Looking for sweet fire Shadow of lady release "Come with me I know the way" she says "It's down, down, down the dark ladder Do you want to contact somebody first Leave someone a letter You can come now Or you can come later" A wristwatch, a ring, a downstairs screamer Edgy-black cracks of the sky "Pin cushion prick fix this poor bad dreamer" "Money" cold shadows reply Pawnshops crisscrossed and padlocked Corridors spit on prayers and pleas Sparks fly up from sweet fire Black soot of lady release "Come with me I know the way" she says "It's down, down, down the dark ladder Do you want to contact somebody first Does it really matter If you come now Or if you come on later?" Red water in the bathroom sink Fever and the scum brown bowl Blue steel still begging But it's indistinct Someone's hi-fi drumming Jelly Roll Concrete concentration camp Bashing in veins for peace Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire Fall into Lady Release "Come with me I know the way" she says "It's down, down, down the dark ladder Do you want to contact somebody first I mean what does it really matter You're going to come now Or you're going to come later"
