Just Another Groovetracer Fan

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by J.D.80, May 23, 2017.

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  1. J.D.80

    J.D.80 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York City
    I'm only writing this because on the fence skeptics like myself might be persuaded to buy into the hype… and they should because

    IT IS WORTH IT!

    I was so damn ready for this to be a disappointment. A waste of money hyped by hopeful people who were only imagining a sonic improvement because they spent 275 bucks (which, to me, is relatively small amount of money in this God-awful world of audio addiction) and couldn't be unbiased to what they heard.
    The honest truth is, I would have spent so much more than the 275 dollars (plus shipping) if someone told me that buying different tubes or cables or a cartridge would give me the equivalent improvement in tonal quality that the Groovetracer subplatter gave me. For that reason alone this upgrade, in retrospect, was a no-brainer.
    The noise floor dropping, the pitch stability, the separation of notes that were always a little smeared by the stock set-up all addressed.
    I'm not saying it was as dramatic a change in sound quality as when I moved from a Yamaha A-S1000 amplifier to my current tube amp, but it was a much larger, and noticeable change than any tube rolling I've done, or changing my cheap lamp cord speaker wires to Chord Odyssey 2 cables or other tweeks I've made. It didn't sound like a "tweek" improvement. It's sounded closer in magnitide to a component change in sound.
    I don't know about the notion that one would be better served buying a better turntable off the bat instead of doing incremental upgrades. I'm fairly new to this hobby/addiction, but I know that by incrementally adding and upgrading parts and pieces is, not only fun as hell, but also continues to be a huge learning experience. It helps me to better understand how each individual part affects the system as a whole. It gives me the chance to learn what to look for, listen to, tweek, adjust, etc..
    When I purchased my P3, I had a 1000 dollar budget for a turntable. It maxed out that budget at the time, but I felt that it gave me the most bang for the buck. The sound out of the box was thrilling compared to what I had been using, a Music Hall 2.2, but as time went on, and my budget allowed for upgrades, the P3 had the right foundation for such upgrades.
    I hope that this little blurb will allow nervous audiophiles with modest budgets, like myself, a little more confidence that they won't be pissing their money away on this purchase.
    I can honestly say it wad well worth it.
     
  2. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    That's an amazing testimony for a counterweight. :)
     
  3. I wish you had not posted this thread; will i soon be parting with my hard earned money?
     
  4. J.D.80

    J.D.80 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York City
    Well, subplatter. But still.
     
  5. Sugar Man

    Sugar Man Forum Resident

    Good stuff. The buy the RP10 line of reasoning over the upgrade path makes sense if money is no object. But most of us have budgets. My RP6 was at the top of mine at the time and the Groovetracer subplatter is my next upgrade. The problem for me, is that with the RP6 glass platter, you either do the GT RP6 subplatter made for the stock glass platter, or you have to go all in on a GT subplatter and acrylic/delrin platter combo, which more than doubles the cost. My understanding is the GT subplatter that works with the stock glass won't work with their platters.
     
  6. J.D.80

    J.D.80 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York City
    Sorry man. Haha
    I wrote my little review because I was that guy sitting there for a month or two debating whether or not the subplatter was a B.S. upgrade path and if I'd just be wasting my money. Now my only regret is not getting it sooner. I feel like real sound quality gains can be tough to come by without spending a lot. This, somehow, was a real noticeable gain. That to me makes it well worth it. Noticeable gain for under 300 bucks... That's something rare in our hobby.
     
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  7. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    The Delryn platter is a nice upgrade, too.
     
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  8. J.D.80

    J.D.80 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York City
    That's interesting. Didn't know that about the RP6. Honestly, I wasn't considering a platter upgrade, but after experiencing the difference of one Groovetracer product, it leaves me to reason that doing another can only stand to improve things.
     
  9. tiller

    tiller Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal
    My P3-24 which I've owned for years now and slowly added the Groovetracer products to was really transformed with the upgrades. The subplatter, counterweight, and delrin platter to be specific. I've decided to move on to another turntable (selling the P3-24, wink wink nudge nudge) but the P3-24 with Groovetracer stuff really punches well beyond its weight. Frank at GT is a pleasure to deal with as well. Solid stuff.
     
  10. TheIncredibleHoke

    TheIncredibleHoke Dachshund Dog Dad

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Agreed. I updated my P3 with the Groovetracer and the delryn platter and it's a fantastic pairing.
     
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  11. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    Vintage Rega Planar 3 owner here (the TT is about 20 years old), I’ve been seeing these Groovetracer raves out of the corner my eye for years now but not paying close attention.

    Question: What exactly is the flaw in the stock Rega subplatter, and what does the Groovetracer do to make these dramatic improvements in sound quality?
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  12. H8SLKC

    H8SLKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I'm interested here too because I read often about Rega's intentionality in producing tables and components that are very light and rigid. The Rega subplatter on the P3 and below appear to adhere to this philosophy. They don't even isolate their motors from the plinth right? So, how is it advantageous to add heavy metallic pieces of rotational weight to the design? I'm not trolling, because I am a budget guy but also fascinated by Rega, but then wonder about their philosophy versus the idea of rotational stability. More discussion please!
     
  13. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Just look at the GT sub platter, compared to a stock Rega one... I mean really, no more need be said.
     
  14. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Easy. Rega uses the same design on the upper tier models. The main reason they don't do this to the lower price models is simply expense. If they put a machined subplatter in the lower tier models you'd be paying for that.
    Rotational stability is improved over the stock subplatter because the groovetracer shaft rotates in the bearing well with a closer, more consistent tolerance, has less friction between the bearing and shaft thrust face (where they contact) and has one single, perfect axis all the way up through the spindle (its machined from one piece rather than the 3 separate pieces pressed together for the lower tier models).
     
  15. scotto

    scotto Senior Member

    Really, dollar for dollar, these upgrades are cheap for the results they deliver.
    I had the same experience as the poster: I'm very much a set-it-and-forget-it guy, not given to tweaks and upgrades, but was blown away by what these minor (and simple) upgrades delivered. It started with the counterweight for my Gyro SE only because I needed the extra weight for the Zu/Denon cartridge I was using. But then I had to merge two systems into one during a room remodel and moved the counterweight and Zu MC cartridge to my Rega P5. Granted, going from the MM (Clearaudio Maestro) to the MC was an upgrade in itself, but the counterweight was a huge boost. Then a couple of years later I had some extra cash around birthday time and decided to go whole hog on the GrooveTracer upgrades for P5: subplatter, delrin platter, record weight, with the existing counterweight. I don't know what the total cost is for those components, but it's nowhere near the bang for buck they bring.
     
  16. Rentz

    Rentz Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    All this rega talk lately has me wondering about getting a used p6 instead of getting my AR customized
    Must stop reading threads!
     
  17. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Generally, I'm not in agreement with people who change out equipment only to make a tiny step up and are making mostly a lateral move.

    In this hobby/addiction, we sometimes get a case of upgrade itis. It is always there, under the surface and now and then, rears its head.

    We can't fight it directly, we have to accept the fact that it is there and how we will choose to deal with it.

    With uncontrolled upgrade itis, we up and sell all of our gear and replace it with entirely new gear, with only the hope that the new and therefore improved system will somehow magically be better.

    The number reason that the new system, will be better, is spending more money for it.

    While better components should be expected to perform better (and I have no problems with this), the sad truth is, this simply is not always true. In reality, it is seldom true.

    You said some things in your post that I liked. Beyond what you said, were the reasons that you gave why you did what you did.

    Besides being fun, doing these things on your own is a huge learning experience.

    The experience that you gather from doing these little experiments are infinitely more important than the benefit that you achieve from the upgrade. But, of course, the two go hand in hand. Sort of. What if didn't work out for the best? Then you will learned to be wary of this type of upgrade. So whether it worked or not, is not as important as the learning experience that you gained over all.

    There are very legitimate reasons for a manufacture not doing these things right off of the bat.

    Mainly, the price of anything is determined by the market place. People shop price first, that is just human nature. If someone sets an arbitrary budget of $800 for a TT. They will then shop $800 TT's.

    On the manufacture's side, the manufacture has to decide which are the best and strongest features, that they can put into a TT and still offer it at an $800 price-point. Most everything in life is a compromise.

    The person who ends up buying that TT, knows that they don't have the best TT possible, but they do feel that they did purchase the best $800 TT that they could.

    Now, its not always best from a financial point of view to buy a more basic unit and then put several hundred's of dollars into it. It would probably make better financial sense to buy a more expensive model.

    This, more expensive model would already have these upgrades integrated into it. Plus, it might have a better motor, plith, tone arm. The upgraded lower cost model, will always be just that, an upgraded base model. No matter what, it will never be able to measure up to the more expensive model, which already incorporates these upgrades and offers a better unit to begin with.

    So why do it? Well you might not of had the money to move to the more expensive product to begin with. Even then, most of us are going to have a starting point and that point will be somewhere. Once you understand how your new TT sounds and have an understanding of it, then when you make a change, you now understand, that for better or worse, or not much difference at all.

    Even though you may or may not have achieved something that might equate with the monetary value of the upgrade preformed, you have gained an education and it is hard to put a price tag on that.

    It helps me to better understand how each individual part affects the system as a whole. It gives me the chance to learn what to look for, listen to, tweek, adjust, etc.

    You WILL be some one who will understand audio!

    S&G
     
    HiFi Guy likes this.
  18. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    Get the AR customized. I can refer you to a guy in Ohio who can do amazing things for it, no BS, and the cost will be comparable to a GT subplatter. Drop me a line for more details.
     
  19. Rentz

    Rentz Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    yup thats the same guy ive talked to :)
     
  20. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    Marc's a good guy and you'll be delighted by the results.

    Now back to the regularly scheduled topic!
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  21. J.D.80

    J.D.80 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York City
    I really enjoyed reading this reply/answer to what I had written earlier. Great thoughtful writing.
     
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  22. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Thank You,

    The path to learning is self discovery. While you can read and educate yourself using available resources, like the Internet and our forum, there is no substitute for hands on experience.

    I had been out of audio for almost 25-years. I started exploring HT and have a love for movies, so it was not like I was soundless all this time. In later years, I traveled and led a mobile life, and my HT and all of my records and gear had been stolen.

    Music, as I had known it had left my life. I tried listening to the digital music that people were listening to on their iPods, at the worst possible resolution, in exchange of the thousand's of illegally downloaded songs they would proudly proclaim to have buried within their iPods.

    They would give me their ear buds and I would try to listen, for a few short moments. I just couldn't endure more than that. Their choice of music, say what they called "metal" was, to me, horrible! Besides that, the SQ was god awful. Music, as I have known it in my prior life, was non existent.

    Got back into music with a digital MP3 download, my first back in 2011, listening on inexpensive earbuds, that came with a cell phone case and car charger.

    A friend of mine had stopped by earlier that year and dropped off a box of records for me. The guy in the warehouse bay next to him was cleaning out his bay and was dumping them after storing them for many years.

    I had acquired a Peachtree Nova integrated Amp and a couple of Polk Monitor 70's towers. Started listening to streaming music from a $49 Sony box and paid Pandora One (still have the same Sony box and Pandora One, listening to it this morning). Bought started buying CD's and started ripping them to digital files. Bought a TT through DAC Industries because they had a package with the additional hardware and software to do needle drops.

    I had somewhere between 50-100 records. The TT had regular RCA outs, not a USB design. I believe that it was a re-branded model that was made by Music Hall. I figured that it was OK to use to do a needle drop, but I really did not want to be playing my records over and over on it. I quickly abandoned the needle drop idea as it was a cumbersome process and too much work.

    Eventually, I did acquire a vintage Dual 1219 TT, with a Sure V15 Type IV cartridge., Then an other restored vintage Thorens TD-160 Super with an Ortofon Bronze and I bought a Black stylus. the Dual is an Idler Drive unit and the Thorens is a belt drive with a sub platter.

    That was probably what piqued my interest in your post, as I am a hands on type myself. I found it interesting to here an honest evaluation, from your perspective what happens when you do a sub platter U/G on a modern TT. Honestly, I didn't have a clue.

    A short story. I have a pair of vintage commercial La Scala's, with custom birch plywood over the original cabinets and custom grills. From what I had been reading, about every knowledgeable source on the planet recommends changing out the "squaker" (midrange) horn. I was reading a long thread, with opinions on the subject and came across one post.

    This was one single person, who said that he liked the sound of his La Scala's just the way they were. Other than the physical appearance, my pair of La Scala's are entirely original. From the opinion of just this single individual poster. I made a decision that I want to keep my pair, completely original. They are really not the best speakers for home stereo use and were designed as a compact PA speaker. No matter what you do to them, your not really going to change what the speaker really is, going crazy modifying it. It is an extremely efficient speaker at 105dB and it sounds best with tube amps, and played at low volume levels. It has a clarity that my large Altec's don't have. At low volumes, they are clear as a bell. The components are the same as the large K-horns. At high volumes, particularly with a SS amp, they will take your head off!

    Because of your review I feel that I have a much better understanding as to the importance of an upgraded sub platter. After all, a P3, is a decent TT to begin with. I do find it important to understand the differences between genuine upgrades and overly expensive "tweeks", as I also suffer from the audio affliction.

    Meaningful tweeks are important when they do produce small but audible improvements and are cost justified. I see way to many people who spend stupid time and money on upgrades, which hardly even qualify as tweeks. These are the most vocal about the important significance of their alleged upgrade, mainly to justify the money they have invested in it.

    I hope that I have all the TT's that I will ever need, because I know that if I get started on the modern day TT route, it will be a huge black hole vortex, that, given to the severity of my audio disease, will suck even more money out of my wallet, which is already looking rather thin these days.

    But, if I do decide to go down the path of purchasing a modern TT, I will make sure, that it does have an up graded sub platter.

    And, that decision will have been strictly reading your post. I have respect for your opinions on the subject.

    Thanks for your valuable input!

    S&G
     
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  23. Hermetech Mastering

    Hermetech Mastering Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Milan, Italy
    I have the GT sub and counterweight on my RP6, both well worth the investment and a big improvement on stock.
     
  24. Sugar Man

    Sugar Man Forum Resident

    I'm now in the enviable position of having the coin to trade my RP-6 in to upgrade to an RP-8 or maybe even the RP-10. If I did that, it wouldn't make sense to do the GT upgrades. But, after reading many of the posts here, and the universal raves for the GT gear, I think I'm going to experiment with the GT upgrade path first. Dying to hear if the change is as big as everyone says. That said, Acrylic or Delrin? Does the counterweight make a noticeable difference - besides looking cool? Feel free to tell me I'm crazy, but no truly sane person enters audiophilia, right?
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  25. Hermetech Mastering

    Hermetech Mastering Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Milan, Italy
    I decided not to bother with the GT platter as I'm still very happy with the stock RP6 glass platter and see no reason to change it. The counterweight improved tracking on my AT150 MLX a lot. Records that were sometimes mis-tracking or skipping before now play without a hitch. That was the biggest difference I noticed, more than any sound quality improvement. The sub was more noticeable as far as sound quality went, lower noise, better speed performance etc..
     
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