Just Got A REL Subwoofer to My Stereo

Well I was feeling that itch so decided to add a high quality subwoofer to my 2 channel dedicated audio room. I went for a used REL Storm and it seems to integrate well with my restricted LF 1.5 Thiels. I've always loved the sound of Thiels but in my 12' x 12' listening room, it didn't make sense to buy some of the bigger speakers. But I have always wanted just a bit more bottom end (not boom) to the sound and the REL seems to fit the bill.

In reading the manual, one aspect of this incredibly flexible subwoofer has came into question. In addition to being able to run the subwoofer in parallel to my main speakers directly from the amplifiers output, it has numerous crossover settings from around 25 - 85 Hz as well as a gain control. The one thing in question though is that it has a phase switch allowing you to switch the bass in or out of phase with your main speakers.

The manual says that since most listening rooms suffer from various reflections and other nasties that cause bass boom, many people use the phase control to cancel out the bass overlap with their main speakers and shamelessly add more to the bottom end.

I know the most important aspect is to find the right crossover level but I was wondering does anyone have any thoughts on having the bass of the subwoofer out of phase with that of my main speakers. Remember, we are only talking about bass in the 25 - 45 Hz range that is being reproduced by the subwoofer. This is a case where the science in theory seems to bother me although when I try it, it does sound pleasant to the ear.

I need a few more days of listening and testing in order to get the sound right but wanted to know if any forum members have had any experience with the REL subwoofers or have an educated opinion about the bass being out of phase-since bass is not necessarily directional, does it even matter?

 

Congratulations, Rel makes excellent subwoofers with great flexibility.
I have owned a Rel Storm III for over 2 years and have tried many methods to blend it with my main speakers, B&W N804's.
My best method(most convenient) to date has been to use the Stereophile test CD #2 or #3 bass warble tones along with a Radio Shack SPL meter to check for peaks and dips down to 20 hz.
I know there are better methods but I do not have a PC at home to use other more powerful software so the Warble tones worked better than just using my ears.

I recommend trying this. Get a notepad and run the warble tones, Write down the 200 hz reading and start at say 70 or 80 db on the SPL meter.
Use this loudness to compare the warble tones as they step down to 20 hz.
You will see the SPL meter vary no doubt and this will allow you to obtain the loudest output from your subwoofer when it is in phase with your mains. IOW, run the tones all the way through once and record each reading. Change the phase on your sub and run them through again and compare. Choose which setting provides the best output. Now you're ready to adjust the x-over frequency to blend with your mains.
I started with the volume at 1/2 way and C-1 on the x-over. Run through the tones and record the meter readings. If you see peaks around 80 hz or so, dial down to B-1 and run them again. It takes time but you get a good idea how the sub is reacting to both your room and your mains after a few times through. You may not be able to get it dialed in to your liking and you may have to position it in another location to get the best response and blend.

I currently have my sub in a different position from where I originally placed it. In this position, I have it crossed at the lowest setting the sub allows, A-1, 22hz I believe. I have what some people call a house curve because I do not like a flat response. I actually had my system running pretty flat and did'nt like it. Currently the response is within 3db down to 40hz and then it slowly rises down to 20hz. You would'nt know there is a sub in the room, it does'nt call attention to itself although you would have a hard time believing that the N804's could produce the quality of bass without its help. Good luck.

Oh, and if it seems like this is a PITA, use your ears.

 

I HATE subwoofers - except for RELs.

I had a REL (Storm? Stentor? can't remember) in for review a year or do back. Forget the bass - it just made everything sound better - bigger scale, less strain. It was as if my Epos ES14s had grown, without losing any of their positive qualities.

When I grow up I'm getting a REL!

 

Thinks, if I didn't spend so much time in this forum I could probably afford one by now!

 

Thanks for the advice vinyl-addict. I knew one of these days I was going to have to get serious and get a Radio Shack sound meter. Well I went out and finally got one today. And wouldn't ypu know the analog one which normally retails for $39 was on sale for $24 BONUS.

I've got company over so the analysis will have to wait. And I do have the Stereophile test cds as well.

I'll report back soon.....

 

Hi KLM,

What a great idea. I had no idea I could pick up a SPM for $25.

I will have to check it out.
How do you know what frequency you are reading unless you have a Signal generator?

 

The corrections for the analogue Radio Shack SPM are published. They apply significantly in the bass, so do a search on google and I bet you'll find them easily.

Regards,
Geoff

 

Geez, I just spent an hour trying to adjust my rooms frequency response. It seems that my room/speakers have a +4 dB boost at 40 Hz. Anyway, it looks like I have to start over based on Metralla's message.

He of course is correct and after looking on the web, I have found quite a few articles including the following which describe in detail some of the changes needed for the Radio Shack sound meter:

http://www.stereotimes.com/acc032902.shtm

I'm frankly not that comfortable making the modifications described in the article and will use the adjustments.

That's for all the advice and I will report back shortly with my revised results....

 

Here is a link that has correction values to use with your un-modified stock RS SPL Meter.

20Hz add 7.5
25Hz add 5
31.5Hz add 3
40Hz add 2.5
50Hz add 1.5
63Hz add 1.5
80Hz add 1.5
100Hz add 2
125Hz add .5
160Hz add .5
200Hz add .5

http://members.tripod.com/~terryctheater/shivaphotoalbum/page11.html

They are from this thread on another forum.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf...=119886&highlight=SPL+meter+correction+values

 

Clay, the stereophile test CD documents the frequencies so you can write them down in sequence before actually running the test tones. They play 11 tones at 10 second intervals from 200hz down to 20hz so you have enough time to write them all down. I live in your vicinity, PM me if you want to discuss it further.

 

Well, I spent a couple of hours playing around with my new sound meter and making some calculations and adjustments to the subwoofer and speaker placement. I actually had a bit of fun doing this and at the end I eas able to get a flat response across the various frequencies within 0 - 2.5 dbs of each other.

The funny thing is that the REL subwoofer integrated so well into the system, I had to make sure it was plugged in. I then checked the sound levels with and without the REL and had a 5 - 15 dB difference in the 20 - 40 hz frequency range.

This subwoofer (or sub bass system) as they call it is simply AMAZING and I highly recommend them to anyone looking to add some bottom end to their main speakers-truly amazing. The one thing I was concerned about was losing the incredible balance and spatial info that the Thiels give off. With the REL, everything sounds as clear and concise but with a firm (not bloated or boomy) bass.

Now my system is full range and dynamic - not bad for a couple of 1.5 Thiels (with the REL).

 

Great KLM, sounds like you have it in the ballpark. It is amazing that you are unable to tell where the bass is coming from iff the sub is setup correctly. The Rel should also improve imaging. Enjoy your new toy.

BTW, what x-over setting did you end up with, and what type of connection did you choose?

 

I ended up setting the crossover at 33 Hz. I was a bit surprised by this but it does sound incredible-the best subwoofer I never heard!!!

I am using the high out put Neutrik Speakon connector directly out of the amp's outputs. I spoke to Kimber Kable today about making a custom cable to replace the stock one for an even better sound - if that's possible.

Stay tuned....

 

Oh and I almost forgot. I ended up hooking up the sub "In Phase" This gave the best measurements after I re calibrated the Radio Shack sound meter. My brother spoke to Clark Johnsen who said he couldn't imagine hooking up a subwoofer out of phase unless there was something wrong with the equipment (or the listener).

Vinyl-Addict, this is the second lowest setting next to yours. Did you use the phase in or out position?

 

I always use in-phase, I did notice it's easier to get a flat response if I put the sub out of phase with my mains but I did'nt like the response, bass lacked punch and seemed slow. You are basically cancelling overlapping frequencies by doing this.

I realize you own the Storm, not the Storm III, correct?
My sub's crossover goes down to 22 hz, which is A-1. That's where I have mine crossed at. Keep in mind that eventhough your sub is crossed low that it will affect higher frequencies too.

I also use the speakon connection so I'd really like to hear if a different cable or a cable of higher quality will further improve the subwoofer's performance. Please let me know the results.

 

Yes mine is the Storm. I don't think they made a Storm II and my unit is about 4 years old and in mint - condition. I think the main difference between the I and III is the amplifier-mine has the 100 watt amplifier.

Funny thing about the cable. I first tried Audioquest since the rest of my system uses their cable. Very nice fellow there but since they use different size strands of cable wrapped around each other, he said they might run into a problem and couldn't help me.

I next tried Kimber Kable and spent a couple of days talking to another extremely helpful guy there. He spoke to REL and found out all he needed and then he gave me the number to the local dealer (JS Audio in Bethesda)to order a double strand of their 4TC cable for about $200 with terminations.

When I called up JS Audio, the salesman told me that there was absolutely no need to replace the stock cable with a higher end one since it only carries pure voltage and a better cable will not make a difference in the sound. He actually went into quite a long and detailed explanation but he lost me after the first minute or so.

I have to say that this is one of the first times a salesperson at an audio store has talked me out of a purchase. Anyway, I thanked him for saving me the purchase and I will just go home and enjoy the sound of the REL. I did reinvest the money for the cable into a $200 order of lps and cds from Red Trumpet.

 

Money well spent.

 

The saga continues, at least able buying a custom cord to replace the stock one for the REL. I spoke to a couple other folks and now believe that a higher grade cord can make a difference (at least I am willing to give it a try).

I'll let you know...