Just recapped my first pair of speakers(Wharfedale W60's)

And used a soldering iron for the first time. Huzzah!
The joints aint particularly pretty, but they work.
And yeah, the speakers sound very nice, but the real miracle is that I didn't burn myself, or anything else.



Ok, now, back to my comfort zone

 

Well done. Solder fumes are addictive!

 

Congrats on your first successful re-capping!

 

How are the W60? I spied a pair of W70s in a thrift shop but they were heavy!

 

Has the sound changed? In what ways have the speakers improved or remained the same? What brand/ type of caps did you choose?

 

Thanks!

Indeed.

They are lovely sounding speakers, not unlike vintage KLH's or Dynaco's. They are on the warmish side, not particularly accurate, but you can listen all day, as they say. The 70's are supposed to be wonderful speakers. I would grab a pair if I came across them at a good price.

Yes, although not as I expected. I used Jantzen Cross Caps, a polypropylene cap. The original caps were electrolytic, and frankly the speakers sounded very nice. No real need for me to change the caps, other than the caps were probably way out of spec, and I wanted to give soldering a try. I have Russian paper in oil caps on the way, as those are what are recommended for these speakers, but they won't be here for a week or more, so thought I'd give the Jantzen's a try. I had read the poly's in vintage Wharfedales, because of the alnico tweeter, resulted in a somewhat brittle, glaring sound, but that's not at all what I've experienced. Just the opposite. The sound is very smooth and warm, so much so that I'm a little concerned that I didn't make good enough connections. Everything is connected correctly(even if they are not very professional looking) and I can hear the tweeters working fine, so I'm sure it's more a result of the old caps being way out of spec and kind of rough compared to these new ones.

 

After doing some research it seems that the significantly higher voltage of the Jantzen's (400V) vs. the older caps(50v) would produce the warmer, smoother response that I'm hearing. Evidently the lower the voltage the faster the response. So what I'm hearing makes a lot more sense now.

 

That's great news. Glad to hear you didn't have any trouble with those, although the W60 crossover is about as simple as it gets, as is the W70. Even the W90's weren't conplicated. Just a matter of putting two new caps where the old ones were.

People call these models inaccurate, but I think they're more-accurate than a lot of the so-called accurate speakers. When you go listen to a live band play, you aren't hearing every nook and cranny of it. In my opinion, a lot of speakers have TOO MUCH resolution. And a lot of those speakers don't compare in the timbre dept. The W60 does outstanding piano and horn instrument sounds, just like the bigger models. It sounds real... lively... musical. What good is extension without timbre? Anyway, that's just my opinion. Sure, they don't have the life-sized dynamic punch of a pair of AR9's, but how many living rooms can accommodate that anyway? Music is supposed to be enjoyable, and when you're talking about the average living room space, a speaker like the W60 or W70 or even the W90 can fill the room without musically-kicking the crap out of your eardrums, and that's important to me. And besides, a pair of W60's and tubes is hard to beat for Beatles stuff and other classic '60's and early '70's music, and with the way they are designed, you can add a little bass lift or some extra highs at the preamp without it compromising the overall sonic integrity. The W90's are especially-open to that, although those can also be EQ'ed at the speaker like nothing I've ever seen.

Interesting to hear about the Jantzens turning out well. After the experience I had with the Dayton poly caps in my W90's, I am gonna have a real hard time choosing ANY polypropylene cap (Like I mentioned before, I'm definitely a little poly-shy). Thankfully, my next speakers (if things go well enough), the E90's, seem to be factory-equipped with good-quality caps, because I have talked to people who say the caps in theirs are still right on spec after 35-37 years. But the thing about the old Rank-era Wharfedales, once you experience that signature sound, you don't want to lose it. I know I'm gonna' love the E90's when I finally get a pair, but I couldn't envision doing without my W90's. Need those mids.

Listening to my W90's right now. They do guitars and horns better than anything I've ever heard (A Hammond B3 sounds like a REAL Hammond B3 hooked up to a tube Leslie speaker... THAT'S accuracy in my opinion). They have a major league soundstage as well. The W60's can put out a great soundstage too, as long as the placement is right.

 

Never thought about that before, but it's an interesting theory. My W90's had Dayton 250VDC polycaps when I bought them (Recapped by previous owner), and then I replaced them with 600VDC oil caps on the tweeters and 1000VDC oil caps on the 5.25" midwoofers, and the difference was incredible. What was most-noticeable about the sound with the poly Daytons was that they seemed to add a glare to the sound that just didn't belong there. It's what made me do the second recap. The W90's sounded as if they were too-big for the room, but that all changed once the oil caps went in. I mean, it was obvious and instantaneous. Plus, the tweeters sounded clearer and yet smoother, and it was as if someone had moved the tweeters forward an inch or two and they were now where they were supposed to be. It was weird how dramatic the change was.

The Dayton caps seemed to add a slight plastic-like tone to the sound that was similar to the way polypropylene caps sounded when I tried them on the tone pots of my guitars. It's important to note, however, that with that sort of application, the difference between the various cap types is INCREDIBLY-obvious. With loudspeakers, the differences are MUCH more-subtle, but still there in my opinion, although I think there are additional factors involved as well, things like ESR and maybe the voltage rating like you were saying. I get the feeling that the old speakers from the '50's and '60's with their bare-bones crossover designs and low power-handling are a lot more-finicky and much more-sensitive to different types of caps (and perhaps this is even more-noticeable when they're being powered by low-watt tube amps), whereas the later, more-modern speakers with their complicated crossovers are maybe not as susceptible to recapping issues like this. In those cases, the 250v Daytons would probably do just fine.

 

Wait. You put paper in oil in place of electrolytic? That's not a sound swap. If the schem calls for electrolytic then that's what needs to be there, with correct polarity also.

 

The thing is, we're talking about speakers from the early '60's that DID come equipped with oil caps when it was introduced in 1960. Wharfedale switched to electrolytic caps around '62 thereabouts, and the crossover remained the same for the duration of the model (I'm referring to the ported, 2-way W60 here, which was available from 1960 to '65), so it's not like we're talking about putting apples in a barrel marked "ORANGES" here. Besides, people have done the same thing with OLA's and had great results.

 

Kind of like the exaggerated contrast and extreme resolution of the nowadays TVs that I see demo'd in stores. Horrible.

But when people talk about the accuracy of speakers, I think it refers more to tonal accuracy (ie: flat frequency response) rather than resolution. I mean, a Shure M97xE cartridge is almost totally accurate, but it's not the most resolving cartridge out there.

 

I get what you're saying... I was merely noting how modern, more-accurate speakers are also more-resolving for the most part compared to the old tube-era speakers, although when I think of TONAL accuracy, I think of TIMBRAL accuracy, where instruments/voices sound like they are supposed to sound (as opposed to a flat or not so flat response curve), and in that regard, I think the old Wharfedales are QUITE-accurate. But in terms of frequency response, sure, there are MUCH flatter speakers nowadays. But still, when you hear a pair of old W60's, W70's, or W90's, it's not like you're hearing a big upper-bass hump or anything, and there's no overhang. The bass sounds quite-natural. And they don't have an upper-midrange peak like some speakers. Everything is very-smooth, pleasant, and easy on the ears.

I have a pair of modern Wharfedale 80th Anniversary Denton reissues that are VERY-accurate in terms of frequency response (44hz-24khz +/-3dB). However, the old Wharfedales like the W60's have noticeably-better TIMBRAL accuracy IMO. They do a better job of reproducing guitars, horn instruments, Hammond organs, and that sort of thing, so it's complicated. The Denton reissues are exceptionally-flat and have a VERY-quick response, and they are capable of outstanding dynamics, especially in the bass, but I prefer the W60's for a lot of different music.

 

I totally get what you're saying. I get equal enjoyment from my ultramodern, highly resolving KEF LS50's and my ancient KLH Sixes and AR4x's. Just like with my tubes and solid state amps, both have their pluses and minus... the presentation is just different.

 

Fabulous conversation. I'm glad that Gang-Twanger,resident Wharfedale expert on Audiokarma, and the main reason I decided to try a vintage pair, has chimed in. He's right about the positive aspects of these speakers and his description about how they present various instrument is spot on.

The voltages argument was something I found while searching for info on why the new caps resulted in a much smoother response than expected. Of course, it could be due to the electrolytic so being so far out of spec. I don't know but the voltage argument was an interesting one, although I've also read that voltages have no real bearing on sound, so who knows?

Very true.

 

This whole conversation about the tonal characteristics of capacitor types has got my curiosity raised. I know next to nothing about this kind of stuff.

When I recapped the X-overs in my KLH Sixes, I used Daytons because a.) they're inexpensive; and b.) that's what "everyone else" uses. I'm wondering if there is some other type I could have/should have used? I like the Sixes enough that I would be willing to re-re-cap them if they would benefit.

I'm tagging @KT88 because I know he has rebuilt a bunch of Sixes, and is also highly knowledgeable. I'd be curious to know what he recommends.

 

Sam, how would you compare the W60's to your KLH Sixes?

Years ago I had a pair of those exact speakers (bought 'em for $60), but didn't like them much and quickly re-sold them. I didn't know then what I know now though, and kinda regret it. They certain look cool and fit my aesthetic taste to a tee.

 

The LS50's are supposed to be amazing for their size. They had a street price of $1500 a pair compared to $1000 a pair for the Dentons, so they're maybe in a ever-so-slightly-higher class than the Dentons, but those speakers have a lot in common. Both anniversary models and both standmounters, but the Dentons have a noticeable touch of warmth to them (The Dentons have an absolutely-beautiful veneer... Amazing-looking... Bookmatched tops and all that... Wharfedale really dropped the ball when they initially marketed them... Awful catalog/brochure/website photos that did zero justice to the superb fit and finish of the actual speakers, but it worked out well for folks like me who didn't really have $1000 to go dropping on a speaker we hadn't heard yet... Someday I'll pick up a pair of used LS50's... The reviews are as good as it gets for a modern standmount model).

W60's, which do have a bigger cabinet, may not have the speed, flatness of response, and extension of the Denton reissues, but when powered by a good vintage tube rig, they have a lively, 3D nature and lack of tonal coloration that bests the Denton reissues. I think part of it may come down to the driver-materials and design. That kevlar midwoofer in the Denton reissue, as nice as it is, leaves a noticeable sonic fingerprint, unlike the W60's. But that's an issue I have with LOTS of modern speakers. I like paper and wool-based drivers, and I also like a good cone-tweeter, mostly for their natural, tonally-uncolored sound. The Denton reissue, with it's kevlar midwoofer and high-extending dome tweeter, just can't compete in that aspect. But the old Wharfedales are very, very-good when it comes to that stuff, so I don't mean to sound like I'm selling the Denton reissue short. That just happens to be the W60's strong point. That's what they do best. You'd be surprised at the number of speakers that don't measure up to the big W90's and their epic timbral skills.

One thing I've always noticed about the Hoffman forum, there are lots of Beatles fans here, and when it comes to the Fab Four (and the Fab Faux ), the W60's and their stablemates are an excellent choice. Plus, they are also a very-good match for vintage Thorens, Garrard, and especially old Dual turntables. The Duals do particularly-well I think because of their combination of rich, juicy mids plus the strong, punchy bass of idler-models like the 1019, 1219, and 1229, which match beautifully with W60's, W70's, and W90's. For Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, Zeppelin, the Dead, and the Doors, that's the sound right there. It's like a classic-rock kit. I forget which Hoffman forum member first told me about the Duals, but they were right about how perfectly-suited they are for classic-rock, which works for me.

Good question there, regarding W60's versus Sixes...

 

Not to go too deeply off-topic, but I am using my LS50s with a Fisher 400 in a small room. I have also used them with a Yamaha CR-1020 for a while.

They sound smooth with smooth components upstream, and they sound etched with etched components upstream. Their strength is in their ability to precisely reproduce whatever signal they are fed, for better or for worse. I do not detect any coloration from the speakers themselves.

 

They're very similar. Mind you, my Six's have not been recapped, because they sound great and I believe, although can't confirm because they're completely sealed, that they have the original military spec oil caps in them. The main difference that I hear is that the Six's have a little better extension. A tiny bit more edge to them. But they're very close. Same era, and I would think that Gilbert Briggs and Henry Kloss probably watched each other, at least to some degree.

I don't know what it was that you didn't like about the 60's, but certainly if they were all original it's likely that they sounded quite veiled, particularly if you didn't spend time working the treble controls in the back. Those things really need to be worked because of likely oxidation. A good shot of DeOxit is advisable as well. But once everything is working as it should, and the advisable recap takes place, I think, based on what you like about the Six's, that you would really enjoy these speakers. Also, amplification plays a big role in the sound, with vintage tube gear being their best friend. So your 400 would really be a great match. I know my 500B is.

 

[QUOTE="Gang-Twanger, post: 13100572, member: 55259"

W60's, which do have a bigger cabinet, may not have the speed, flatness of response, and extension of the Denton reissues, but when powered by a good vintage tube rig, they have a lively, 3D nature and lack of tonal coloration that bests the Denton reissues. I think part of it may come down to the driver-materials and design. That kevlar midwoofer in the Denton reissue, as nice as it is, leaves a noticeable sonic fingerprint, unlike the W60's. But that's an issue I have with LOTS of modern speakers. I like paper and wool-based drivers, and I also like a good cone-tweeter, mostly for their natural, tonally-uncolored sound. The Denton reissue, with it's kevlar midwoofer and high-extending dome tweeter, just can't compete in that aspect. But the old Wharfedales are very, very-good when it comes to that stuff, so I don't mean to sound like I'm selling the Denton reissue short. That just happens to be the W60's strong point. That's what they do best. You'd be surprised at the number of speakers that don't measure up to the big W90's and their epic timbral skills.

One thing I've always noticed about the Hoffman forum, there are lots of Beatles fans here, and when it comes to the Fab Four (and the Fab Faux ), the W60's and their stablemates are an excellent choice. Plus, they are also a very-good match for vintage Thorens, Garrard, and especially old Dual turntables. The Duals do particularly-well I think because of their combination of rich, juicy mids plus the strong, punchy bass of idler-models like the 1019, 1219, and 1229, which match beautifully with W60's, W70's, and W90's. For Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, Zeppelin, the Dead, and the Doors, that's the sound right there. It's like a classic-rock kit. I forget which Hoffman forum member first told me about the Duals, but they were right about how perfectly-suited they are for classic-rock, which works for me.

Good question there, regarding W60's versus Sixes...[/QUOTE]

This.

 

Thanks, Sam!

I did re-cap the W60's (IIRC), but what I think I didn't like about them had more to do with the amp I had at the time. It was a Voice of Music 1448, which I've come to realize was a pretty dark sounding amp (at least mine was).

There's a pair on Boston CL right now for $125, but they're from the mid '60s and have the less attractive tan grille cloth. If I came upon another early '60s pair like yours with the '50s-type cloth, and the price is right, I think I'll jump on them.

 

Ok that certainly could've done it. Be interesting to find out what kind of caps you used.

I don't find the W60's dark at all, but they're not uber lively either, so while I just got finished saying that vintage tube gear is a grear match for them, perhaps I should amend that with "certain" vintage tube gear. Certainly, while the classic Fisher receiver are smooth, I would never describe them as dark.

 

Yeah, man, I love idler tables! I have a Dual 1019 and 1219, plus a TD-124 and ROK L-34.

 

Nice... I like the sound of that. And I use an 800C with my W90's, so that's good to know that they like tubes. I think they're an easier load on the amp too, aren't they? The Dentons after an afternoon of crankin'music will have some pretty-warm transformers, whereas the W60's and other W*0 models are a breeze for the amp to drive (See how I threw in the W60's to pull us back on topic in one deft move like that? )