If The Elder sold as much as The Wall both Paul and Gene would hail it as their finest work and we all know that.
Beth and Forever exist in different musical dimensions in my book. As opposite as heaven and hell if you ask me.
I think no matter what album they had been recording, they would've dropped that album if they felt getting back with Ace and Peter would be what people wanted and yes, that is the real Kiss. Had COS been successful Paul would've toned down any criticism but he still would've felt it and it still would've come out in comments. He waits to form an opinion until after it falls of the charts. I feel he's always hard on himself. Way more than he needs to be.
Hate Music is heavy, Gene provides a good vocal. For some reason I find it difficult to believe that Paul is playing those heavy, downtuned riffs. Besides the obvious I can't really picture it. They're definitely trying to channel AIC and the performance isn't bad, pretty heavy song and if the rest of the album is like this (I don't think it is) it will be far from a disaster. On my second listen, this is going to take some getting used to but before I bore any of you any longer struggling to articulate my feelings as I try and absorb this I think I have to call this song a success. If this is the sound they're going for then this is a good opening track. Personally I've heard better but only because KISS is the best KISS but they will never be the best Def Leppard, Bon Jovi or AIC. Take that for what it's worth. 7/10
The big difference between The Elder and COS is that they still totally sounded like themselves on The Elder. It was major departure but it sounded like a band evolving naturally (especially given Destroyer and the solo albums) - like Sgt.Pepper you knew that you still listened to The Beatles though it sounded nothing like the early stuff. On COS they sounded like different people and not only in terms of instrumental sound - Gene at least sounded like himself but Paul did a grunge vocal parody which sounded totally fake and ridiculous.
I totally agree. And as much as I love COS, you'd have to be delusional to say they should have forgone a reunion in order to promote it. It's just that, at that particular point in time, there were no plans to even release the album. Therefore, there was no practical reason for Paul to have been praising it. He did so because I believe he genuinely thought it was a good album. Regardless if it was his preferred direction for them at that point in time or not. And yes, obviously he could have changed his tune on the album in the intervening years. It's fashionable to slam the album, thus I'd say it's fairly predictable to guess that Paul would do the same. My contention is that, despite whatever misgivings he may have had at the time, he and the others all put a lot of work into the album, and their efforts resulted in one of the band's stronger efforts. All my opinion, needless to say!
No offense my friend, but what do you want to call what was commonly known as "grunge"? I think as most know "grunge" was really just an amalgamation of stuff like latter day Black Flag, Black Sabbath, and some garage influences. As I said myself, I think it's a stupid term but it was the nomenclature at the time. Essentially, I don't want to argue this point throughout the course of the discussion of this album. If we can agree on a more accepted term, fine, but otherwise I'm going to use it as a catch all phrase for what many bands were cranking out during this period. I cannot tell you how much Sub Pop, Touch & Go, and Am Rep titles I have that at least, modestly, fit the bill to at least come close to the label (whatever that label is).
I agree that he put a lot of effort into it. I don't doubt that at all. You can't make an album and not work hard. He's a professional and did the job. I bet he was uncomfortable letting Gene steer the ship since he worked his butt of throughout the 80's to keep it afloat.
I cannot prove it, but I'd bet the majority of the musical part of this album is Kulick and Singer. As I noted, Bruce plays bass on half of the songs. I'd wager there's not much Paul on guitar for this album but I might be wrong. I just tend to doubt it.
They "sounded like themselves" on The Elder???? Something is very wrong with your copy of that album. Carnival of Souls was the one album, post-1977, that had really had common ground with the original Kiss of 1974. It was no more insincere than Kiss attempting to do hair metal on Crazy Nights or highbrow art-rock on The Elder. Kiss fans are very hypocritical when it comes to this record. They criticize the band for jumping on a bandwagon -- as if they'd ever done anything different than that -- because they have a beef with so-called "grunge" music, since it helped kill the careers of the hair metal they loved. Plain and simple. The band has aped other bands and styles since day one -- sometimes more obviously than others. Carnival is a varied, interesting, well-written, well-performed record. It was the best thing they had done in many, many, many years.
I was at that one. Gene and Paul did a signing at a coffee shop in Salem on Halloween 1997, and WAAF broadcasted live on location.
I was thinking about this on the commute home. Despite Gene being the "demon" and his dark persona, Paul is actually the dark one with his resentments and anger issues. Gene is actually very level headed personality wise and has self awareness on how he acts. He knows when he is being a jerk or cocky etc. Maybe Paul didn't like going into darker subjects and being so exposed on COS. Maybe he thought it went to deep for his liking? He would rather sing about happy non personal stuff like strippers. A few ballads went deep over the years but mostly it's pretty superficial. He never wrote about growing up and all the issues he had over the years that affected him.
Paul has never let Gene push him around. Ever. He can claim this was Gene's call, and I have no doubt it was, but what would Paul have done instead? Gone back to more of a pop direction, a la CRAZY NIGHTS? That would have been laughed at, and you and I (and Paul) know it. REVENGE was well-received, and doubling-down on a heavier, darker direction made as much sense as anything else I can come up with. I honestly don't know what else they could have done at that point, other than consciously trying to replicate their 70's sound. And given the musical climate at that time, I don't think it would have been accepted. But put the makeup back on, and bring back Ace and Peter, (and add in another year or two of people getting their earful of this alternative/grunge/whatever sound) and suddenly it was accepted. But I'd love to hear a sound strategy for KISS following up REVENGE, given the musical climate at the time.
No. They were promoting the release of Carnival of Souls on 10/31/97. Gene and Paul both signed my CD that day.
I think you're right. This album is heavily Bruce. Over the years, I've come to really appreciate his dedication to trying to make these songs as sonically interesting as possible.
I apologize, I've really got my time periods mixed up on this one. I thought the album came out in '95, and was practically buried due to the renewed interest in the original foursome. Crazy that this was just after Alive Worldwide...
Yeah, it was kind of a big deal at this point to see them acknowledging the Kulick/Singer band in the midst of all the makeup and reunion frenzy!
Wow. I was unaware that P&G had ever done any promotional work for this album at all. I had read of a promotional tour that Bruce had conducted, promoting it at many rock radio stations back in the day. But that's it.
