KISS: The Songs 1974-2012

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by GodShifter, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans
    Boy, I don't understand that sentiment. It has one of Ace's coolest solos ever! To me, the phasing sounds he gets on that tune are some of the best ever laid down on tape.
     
  2. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    The important thing to remember is that as with anything else, assessments are subjective. There's no right or wrong re good drumming. It's a matter of what you like or not.

    I don't know what 24voltsdc is hearing as sloppy, but it's sure not sloppy in my opinion. (I'm wondering if he's not interpreting the slapback delay on Peter's drums as part of what sounds "sloppy" to him.)
     
    npgchris, dadonred and GodShifter like this.
  3. 24voltsdc

    24voltsdc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    Let's use John Bonham and Neil Peart as an example of what I'm talking about. Neither are or were sloppy players, but they couldn't be more different in feel. Bonham had much more groove to his playing. Neil never has had that but is technically a very skilled drummer. I like them both for different reasons. But sloppy playing is just something I can't stand. Another great example was Ringo. Not a technically great drummer but had fantastic feel and was never sloppy in his playing. Peter was often sloppy and lazy as far as I'm concerned. And he often bragged on his abilities more than he proved his skills.
     
  4. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    I've been playing for almost 50 years, professionally for 40 more or less, and I can tell you that he's considered quite good, at least during his 70s KISS tenure, by many, including me.
     
    M321115, 905, ArpMoog and 4 others like this.
  5. 24voltsdc

    24voltsdc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    No it's not the delay.
     
  6. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    So what would you say is sloppy?
     
  7. 24voltsdc

    24voltsdc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    It's nothing personal brother! Just one man's opinion. Like I said I would rather NOT turn this thread into a debate about Pete's skills. I still like him.
     
  8. Deuce66

    Deuce66 Senior Member

    Location:
    Canada
    it's the only good thing about it, it starts at 2:30 and lasts about 30 seconds
     
    Todd W. likes this.
  9. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    Right, I was just stressing what I did so we know that experience as a drummer doesn't lead to just one particular opinion. It can be behind all sorts of different opinions. Sometimes people seem to be suggesting that their subjective opinion isn't so subjective--that there's something objective or right about it--because of their experience/expertise, etc.
     
  10. 24voltsdc

    24voltsdc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    I absolutely agree with you! :)
     
    dadonred likes this.
  11. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans
    Not to me - I just don't have anything bad to say about the entire album.
     
  12. Exile On My Street

    Exile On My Street Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Love Em and Leave em

    Never one of my favorite tunes on the album but still pretty good. I like the beat, I'm a sucker for that sort of thing. Thankfully I'm completely unable to tell sloppy drumming from good drumming :laugh: so I happen to like Peter's work here and on the entire album. I like the intro and Ace's solo is killer, one of his best on the record. I think it's a rocking song, goes on for a little too long towards the end. It's not a lost gem or anything like that but it's serviceable.
     
    ejluther, npgchris, SammyJoe and 2 others like this.
  13. SizzleVonSizzleton

    SizzleVonSizzleton The Last Yeti

    I really like the tone of the guitar that starts Love 'Em And Leave 'Em but again it's not a live sounding guitar. Beating a dead horse but saying nothing about the quality of the tunes, the performances on Rock and Roll Over don't sound live at all.

    Not being a RARO champion it's taken a lot of listens in the last week to realize how really juvenile the lyrics are on this album, even for KISS. Luckily 95% of it makes me laugh or smile so it's not big deal but they really aimed the bar as low as possible. That said "I've got a stiff proposition" has been spoken in my house several times this week; a 45 year old has to work hard to maintain their immaturity, and I'm gladly doing the legwork.

    This is a pretty dumb song but it really doesn't bother me. It's aided by Paul being on backing vocals to tie things together.

    But the highlight is Ace Frehley by about a million miles. He really hits homerun with this solo. The effect he does at 2:58 is such a great finish. I believe that's him turning the pickups off and on, no? Does toggle switch sound right? That's what I've always referred to it as.

    Another song that would be better for cutting 30 seconds out of it but it's got great value just for Ace's contribution.
     
    cageyc, npgchris, SammyJoe and 5 others like this.
  14. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    :righton:
     
    cageyc, npgchris, dadonred and 2 others like this.
  15. bartels76

    bartels76 Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    CT
    I'm a little behind here:
    Ladies Room- I've always liked this song. I think the version from Exposed (Houston 77) is the ultimate version of this. It is a shame they never play this live anymore as it's a fun song.

    Baby Driver- Peter almost evokes a Sam Kinison type voice here screaming throughout. My least favorite song that Peter sings off the 70's Kiss albums but I don't hate it. Ace does cool riffing throughout.

    Love Em Leave Em- This song just reeks of I gotta put something together quick here. The only highlight is Ace's guitar flourishes and the neat solo he does. Why was there a promo video made for this we will never know. If you are picking a Gene song why wouldn't you do Dr. Love. Anyways Gene's um..."choreography" is a sight.
     
  16. Deuce66

    Deuce66 Senior Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Martin Popoff's review of Rock n Roll Over hits some your points

    A disappointment after the amusing ambitions of Destroyer, said platter returns to the wee dumb hard rock cartoons of the early albums, but with more dollar-chasing cliches, less power, less-sincerity and less creative acumen, something always in short supply with these brilliant numbskulls. Lyrically we've heard it all before and outside of catchy stompers I Want You, Makin Love and Peter Criss' pulsating Baby Driver, the rest is fairly lifeless, awkward, ditzy self-aggrandizing pop metal that signals a band on the edge of self-parody. Tied with Love Gun as the most childish KISS album. 7/10

    just so everyone knows where he's coming from previous ratings were 8-KISS/8-HTH/8-DTK/10 for Alive/8-Destroyer
     
  17. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans
    One interesting thing about this song is that Gene once mentioned (I forget which book) that the main riff to the song (in the verses) is the same riff during the solo of "Sweet Pain". It's just a bit slowed down for Love 'Em. It's hard to hear it in "Sweet Pain", though, but if you listen closely, you can tell to some degree.
     
    SammyJoe and dadonred like this.
  18. Diamond Star Halo

    Diamond Star Halo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    Love 'Em Leave 'Em - Pretty good tune, although I'd say it's the weakest of Gene's offerings on RARO. I love the juvenile lyrics. Ace is the highlight on this track - I love how he uses the toggle at the end of the solo.
     
  19. That's cool @24voltsdc. You're not the first person I've heard that isn't that high on Peter's playing (even though you like him). I responded just because I felt it was an opportunity to share qualities I like about him and maybe explain how the context he created in is as equally important to me as technical ability. I'm glad you brought it up!
     
    dadonred, GodShifter and 24voltsdc like this.
  20. Love Em Leave Em.

    Do I like the song? Yes. Are the lyrics some of Gene's worst? Probably. I can't hear the tune without seeing those goofy stage gestures he does in their promo. Even as a kid, I wondered why he was acting so dorky.

    That said, the solo in this track is pretty bad ass. Whatever effect he's using sounds great to my ear. There's definitely phase happening, but do I detect an octave splitter or ring modulator of some sort? If any of you guitarists or engineers out there know, please chime in. Even if it's just a guess.

    To quote Michael de Barres: Ace Supreme is the prince of his team. Haha!
     
    dadonred, Zoot Marimba and GodShifter like this.
  21. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    For folks who don't care for the lyrics, is it because you're uncomfortable with them in terms of subject matter, and maybe from an ethical or political perspective or something, or is it that you don't care for them formally, in terms of their metric structure, phonetic structure, rhymes/rhyme schemes, or perhaps you're someone who wants lyrics to work by prose grammatical conventions and so on?
     
  22. Diamond Star Halo

    Diamond Star Halo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    I have to say that I don't really understand why Peter gets heavily criticized for being "sloppy." I for one am glad that he doesn't sound like a human metronome. His playing is unique, energetic, and creative . It swings and has a sort of controlled looseness that really works well with the material. I am well aware that he is no John Bonham - who is? - but Kiss was very lucky to have him, at least prior to 1978 when the wheels fell off. Peter's drumming is quite possibly the single biggest factor that prevents early Kiss from stepping into the trap of meat headed, generic hard rock.
     
    ejluther, 905, npgchris and 8 others like this.
  23. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    Well, and in my opinion you don't want to be too metronomic on a fine-grained scale anyway. For one, grooving is all about slight rhythmic displacements relative to metronomic time. Drum machines that are too precise, that don't have a bit of quantization variance built in (preferably controllable as a parameter), do not groove--which is why any sophisticated drum machine or sequencer has a quantization variance parameter.

    That's different than the overall bpm changing a lot. It's a matter of whether for example particular quarter notes (if we're playing a simple 1 and 3 on a bass drum and 2 and 4 on a snare for example) fall just ahead or just behind that overall metronomic pulse. Grooving is about fine-grained control of that (as well as fine-grained control of phrasing, timbre, dynamics, etc.) in a non-robotic way.
     
    npgchris, SammyJoe, dadonred and 3 others like this.
  24. Diamond Star Halo

    Diamond Star Halo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    Great post. I would also venture that changes in bpm aren't always a bad thing. For example, a slight increase in bpm as a song progresses can often help to create a sense of excitement at the end of a song.
     
    dadonred and Terrapin Station like this.
  25. Todd W.

    Todd W. It's a Puggle

    Location:
    Maryland
    A great solo doesn't make it a great song. I like his solo in Let Me Go Rock n Roll, but I don't like that song either. This would have been a 10/10 album if not for this song and See You In Your Dreams.
     
    dadonred and GodShifter like this.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine