Labels and pressing plants, we're tired of non-fill, so knock it off!!

So I just received the four latest Depeche Mode vinyl reissues.

I've so far listened to three out of the four.

Two of those had non-fill issues on their second sides. This is a pressing flaw that happens far more often with 180g and 200g pressings than with lighter weight pressings that take less time to cool in the stampers.

It's ridiculous that I'm going to have to send at least half this order back to Amazon. And I only used Amazon because I knew this would happen. One of the first four Depeche reissues I purchased last month also had non-fill. I didn't want to have the hassle of trying to return vinyl at my local shop, which doesn't like taking it back, so I pre-ordered the rest through Amazon. Good thing I did. (And a couple of months back my copy of the reissue of The Clash's Sandinista! had non-fill on two sides. Two sides of a six-side album! And two other sides were full of snap, crackle and pop.)

In fact, I'd say full one-third of the new vinyl I buy has some sort of pressing defect, whether it's non-fill, unacceptable levels of surface noise, or scratches obviously made by the plant employees as they were putting the LPs into their sleeves.

So I'm saying it: Labels and pressing plants, take your 200g and 180g "audiophile" vinyl and SHOVE IT.

Bring back 140g and 160g weights that don't tend to have non-fill. Just let us have a better shot at good pressings out of the gate. Please. We're dropping 2-4 times the cost of the same music on CD, treat us like you actually have some damn respect for us. Stop this heavyweight vinyl madness. Press good records, plain and simple.

If you actually want vinyl to come back, wake up and stop this.

 

I couldn`t agree more.

 

What is 'non-fill'?

 

Makes a "zipping" noise as you play the LP. Looks like tiny strings of pearls in the grooves. Happens when the LP doesn't cool long enough in the stampers; when the halves are pulled away, a tiny part of the cooling vinyl goes with the stamper. And it happens far more with heavyweight vinyl.

 

Non-fill is a pressing defect, usually in the heavier pressings as the OP mentioned - not regular surface noise, more of a tearing or ripping sound and for me it really takes me out of the moment. Sometimes can actually be seen as a line of dots on the vinyl, when seen in bright light. (EDIT: he beat me to it!)

I 100% agree with the OP - it happens more often than it should and I'd much rather that the labels go back to ~150g vinyl and just "do it right".

 

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/what-non-fill-looks

Michael Fremer states it's when the molten vinyl isn't given enough time to fill the stamper properly, and that also works for me as an explanation.

 

Steve, would you have any idea why this problem is so much more prevalent now than it was prior to the majority of plants starting to press heavyweight vinyl? RTI is one of the few plants I feel I can trust, by the way.

This was one of the big complaints about the Beatles vinyl reissues from Rainbo a couple years back, too.

 

Calibration issue?

Useage beyond design parameters?

These old pressing machines weren't initially designed for heavy weight vinyl.

 

I've really curtailed my vinyl buying. I don't want to be part of a vinyl-bashing thread at all, as it is my preferred source for music listening (I like CD just fine, too). But I find the prices are creeping a bit too high (I buy a lot of music, so it adds up pretty quickly), and the defects are really too numerous for me to ignore. I'm getting to hate the anxiety of buying a new LP and being disappointed in the quality of the product, and then having to organize a return, etc., etc.

Just one man's opinion.

 

Cheers, thanks for that. Makes sense. I wonder if nearly a generation where plants were shutting down, old employees retired, and new people probably weren't really trained properly has something to do with it. Passing on a trade requires continuity.

 

And I adore vinyl, so I'm not bashing it. I'm bashing the pressing quality of far too many LPs leaving the plants; LPs that should have been binned by their quality control.

 

Matt from Gotta Groove Records here. This is a great thread, and I would like to offer some opinions from the pressing plant perspective. I can only speak from the POV of our pressing plant – every plant runs things in different ways, so please do not take anything I have typed here as “the law” for all plants. Also, neither of the above-mentioned records were pressed here, so there could have been other factors at play on those records which I would not be privy to. [i.e., I am not claiming that the way we do things is the “right” way or that the way other plants do things is “wrong”].


In general, I completely agree with Steve’s post that the dynamics in music are a huge factor in pressing records. For example, when you compare the groove shape of a record where no elliptical EQ was used during the cut to a record with a conservative EE (perhaps 100hz), there is a distinct “taming” effect in the latter. This directly translates (again, only speaking from experience at our plant) to a “quieter” pressing – things such as stitching / nonfill which are commonly referred to as “surface noise” in the marketplace are much more prevalent when no EE is used.


At our plant, we actually find that no two records run alike; and cycle times / mold temperatures can vary dramatically from one program material to the next, even when running different recordings on the same pressing machine.


In the case of more dynamic recordings, to combat stitching/non-fill, we find that a much longer cycle time is needed due to hotter mold temperatures. (i.e., higher mold temp to help the plastic better mold into the groove shape; longer cool cycle to prevent warping/dishing; combined longer period of time each record is being held at 100tons of pressing in the molds). The byproduct of this longer cycle time is that the records tend to average a bit “thinner/lighter”. I believe this is where the notion that lighter weight records are less susceptible to nonfill is derived; however, we actually find that 180 gram records are less susceptible to non-fill because by nature they have a longer cycle time due to the larger size of the biscuit. At the end of the day, you can only go so far with temp/cycle time before you are warping the records.


We actually even have a separate type of vinyl compound we can use for more challenging records. But, being a vinyl guy I hate to admit this, vinyl is not a perfect format. There are some records which, due to the program material embodied in the grooves, will have some level of stitching/non-fill no matter what type of PVC compound / temperature / cycle time / vinyl weight is involved. They are rare, but they can happen, and it is the nature of the format, imho.

 

Thanks Matt for the insight.

 

@ uraniumrock, I think Ben and I are just going on our admittedly subjective experiences. I buy a lot of modern vinyl, new and reissues alike, and so far at least the only time I've ever come across non-fill is with 180g records. Beck's "Morning Phase", the Rainbo fiasco with the Beatles remasters, Radiohead's "The Bends", and at least two Matt Pond PA reissues. All 180g.

So, for me anyway, it shows a pattern.

 

I have had non-fill on 140g as well as 180g. Also had warping at all weights though dishing is more common the heavier the weight. That would tend to fit in with Matt's explanation. Non-fill is more common today which fits in with extra dynamic cuts.

 

This does seem to be a problem w/ today's pressings more so than say, ten years ago. I used to buy a lot of MFSL 200 gram reissues, (not to mention the UHQRs), and I don't remember a lot of noise problems and returns. Do the MoFi pressings coming out now have the noise problem?

 

I feel like I've learned so much from this thread. Thanks to everyone who provided real insight into the process!

 

Hey Beavis......Steve said 'Squash'.........

Cool........Squash Time.........Cool
the beave

 

Except at QRP where they have computer controlled presses. Instead of going by time the presses have embedded temperature sensors that adjust the time of each cycle as necessary.

You can read about this on Chad Kassem's web site. Here is a link: http://qualityrecordpressings.com

 

Ben,

As you may have seen in the DM thread, I've been buying some of the reissues as well and when playing my copy of Ultra yesterday, there was one bit that sounded like a possible non-fill issue. When I looked at the record I didn't see anything that looked like typical non-fill so its very possible the record was just dirty. The two reissues I've got so far (SOFAD and Ultra) have both had higher than usual surface noise. Will have to check out Ultra a bit more closely when I get home. I really hope it's not because sonically the album sounds superior on vinyl.

 

These are called PLC's. We actually use these as well - it helps in monitoring/altering the mold temperatures and cycle times like I mentioned in my prior post. Each "zone" inside the mold and around it has its own sensor.

 

Thanks for posting here, Matt. I'm in Ohio too, and a lot of local labels and artists use your plant for their albums. They are always excellent pressings. I especially liked the recent reissue of Luna's "Bewitched." Keep up the good work!