Led Zeppelin II - 1988 Technidisc CD with Different Mastering

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Agora Mike, Aug 10, 2018.

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  1. Agora Mike

    Agora Mike Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cleveland USA
    Thanks George. Yes I agree for all intents and purposes these are the same. But I find it interesting nonetheless because it seems to be unique, unless someone else has seen any early Zeppelin CD that isn't a complete digital clone of all the others. And I wonder what exactly they were futzing with at Technidisc! And although my mind may be playing tricks with me I swear I can hear subtle differences at times between the tracks, especially as it relates to stereo separation and Plant's vocals at times. It may be simply the difference in volume too, but we are only talking about a 1-2% difference there. But I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression - these recordings are virtually identical.
     
    George P likes this.
  2. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    Yea - I'm pretty sure those masterings are using the same stereo mix. From what I was told, Page wanted Kramer to mix it. Something about meeting him when he was doing Jimi Hendrix at Olympic and Page and Jones were still session guys.

    From what I gather, at the time Led Zep wasn't as widely revered. Kramer had relocated to the states (I believe to do stuff at Electric Lady) and Page was on a tour and had brought a safety 1" for him to mix. So they just wanted to get it done and out there.

    So I'm guessing that all the "remasters" are from the old 12 channel rotary console. That WSJ article is a great source of info - except for the thing about the "Pre echo"

    I was so surprised when I heard what was actually going on.

    Also - and I should really mention this here - I did a quick mastering of my remix to match the latest 2015 remaster from the Mothership thing. Not really how I'd want to do it.
    I use many different LUFS meters - but the ones I trust are Youlean and the Orban thing ('caused I used Orban as a broadcast engineer)
    METER
    the Orban is great - it has a batch function as well as the ability to loop back your sound card for live metering.

    I recall doing a Twisted Tower Dire thing for their label in Germany. The Japanese label that was distributing their catalog in Asia wanted it even more squished. I hated what I did th first time but everyone wanted genre-specific loudness at the time.

    I would love to do a bit more with this remix, but it comes down to what should really happen
    "Get some one real to remix that stuff and get someone real to master it"
    So we can all enjoy it in our medium of preference.

    I mean yea - I do this for small labels and relatively unknown bands in niche genres - but man, really? Me?

    I don't think so... Just whomever does it, put the love and time into it. I showed it can be done.

    On my marketturd page - Marketturd Quarterly - rants for Prehensile Chimps
    "mama I wanna be a maker" at the end I mention a Taoist teaching:- the Story of the Woodcarver which was given to me as a teenage musician by a large, scary piano mover:

    >From an interview by Scott London with Stephen Mitchell:
    Touching the Essence of Things :: An Interview with Stephen Mitchell

    "Mitchell: There's a wonderful story about that in The Second Book of the Tao.
    It goes like this:

    Ch'ing the master woodworker carved a bell stand so intricately graceful that all who saw it were astonished. They thought that a god must have made it.
    The Marquis of Lu asked, "How did your art achieve something of such unearthly beauty?"

    "My Lord," Ch'ing said, "I'm just a simple woodworker — I don’t know anything about art. But here’s what I can tell you. Whenever I begin to carve a bell
    stand, I concentrate my mind.

    After three days of meditating, I no longer have any thoughts of praise or blame. After five days, I no longer have any thoughts of success or failure.
    After seven days, I'm not identified with a body.

    All my power is focused on my task; there are no distractions. At that point, I enter the mountain forest.

    I examine the trees until exactly the right one appears. If I can see a bell stand inside it, the real work is done, and all I have to do is get started. Thus I harmonize inner and outer. That's why people
    think that my work must be superhuman."


    So - Atlantic/WEA, Page, whomever actually owns this - I present the tree.
     
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  3. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    This came out as a bootleg by Empress Valley and a few others that followed.
     
    tmtomh likes this.
  4. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    Yea - I'm guessing that's where the guy found it that sent me the link to remix it. From what I was told those came about from one of the game guys.
     
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  5. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    I still can't seem to find a copy of a Technidisc release. Just went to two local used book/music stores and no luck - not surprised.
     
  6. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    Also note - those videos of my remix have a quite a few audio artifacts. It's not in the DAW or rendered files I used to make those vids..

    It's OK - it gets the point across that a remix would benefit those old catalogs.

    I'm not a golden ears kinda guy but geez, the lossy data compression of MP4's (I used AAC @44.1K for the audio ) really does leave much to be desired.
     
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  7. Agora Mike

    Agora Mike Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cleveland USA
    Just in case anyone is interested, here are a couple more samples to compare. I think if there is any difference between them, the Technidisc has better separation between the instruments and a little better extension in the cymbals. Almost as if it was processed through slightly higher quality equipment. But again I hate to even make these comparisons because the difference is subtle to my ears and I know how easy it is to fool yourself. I am really curious if anyone else notices anything at all.

    Specialty:
    http://www.filedropper.com/track3samplesrcpressing

    Technidisc:
    http://www.filedropper.com/track3sampletechnidiscpressing
     
  8. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    No clue Mike, kinda like Laservideo which seems to be pretty uncommon as well.
     
  9. One_L

    One_L Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lower Left Coast
    Discogs has one for sale - ships from France.

    Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin II
     
  10. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    Thanks for that - I went to go buy it - the seller mentions contacting him for international sales;
    [​IMG]

    the cart said "Shipping - to be determined by Seller"
    Which is a bit iffy... he's got good reviews tho

    Hope he responds...
     
  11. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    I had a listen to the samples, using fooabx I was not able to distinguish between it and the Diament with any meaningful result (slightly worse than guessing), I am guessing it's just a level shifted version of Diament's master. I was using the headphone system in my profile.
     
  12. Agora Mike

    Agora Mike Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cleveland USA
    Thanks hvbias. Yes I suspect it would be really difficult to A/B/X between these track and consistently pick each one out. I might try to pick a very short 2-3 second sample that highlights the slight differences I hear and use Foobar to A/B/X them and see how it goes. If I'm successful I will upload the samples for you to try.

    Yes it is definitely the same digital source - Diament master. Just wondering what Technidisc did and what was introduced in their chain that caused the differences. I know it is arguing small differences, but I really don't consider this a level-shifted version of the same master because every single track is shifted by a different percentage both plus and minus! In my opinion this is not what is considered "level-shifted" as generally understood. But, as I said from my first post, this is definitely sourced from the Diament 80s mastering but it is curious.
     
  13. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    So are you guys saying I should just skip trying to get the Technidisc thing to compare my remix to?

    The 2015 is a bit different in both appearance of the rip as well as what i meter
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Agora Mike

    Agora Mike Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cleveland USA
    Yes ajawmnet any difference would be much less than anything you have done with your remix of the original multi-tracks! It might be fun to compare to the common version of the Diament CD but I don't think it would give you any more insight to the original recording than you already have.
     
  15. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    Thanks so much for that info... saves me some time and money.
    I owe you one... I'll make sure to never mention you when I get the cease and desist from Page
     
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  16. RingoStarr39

    RingoStarr39 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baden, PA
    I'm almost certain the reason why one of the drum tracks sounds bad on those 8 tracks is because of a bad transfer.
    Surely it can't sound like that when the tapes are played back properly?
    I also noticed that Ramble On has the mono drum track and percussion overdub mixed as a stereo pair instead of on their own discreet channels.
     
  17. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
  18. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Actually Barry said the SRC CDs sounded the closest to the master tapes he made since different pressings always changed the sound some, but that people may like the sound of certain pressings over other ones. That's why some prefer the 1st Japanese pressings of the Zeppelin albums over the SRC CDs. Take that as you will. :)
     
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  19. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109

    Yea - it may have been something weird in their setup. Hope it's not the tape itself. And this may have been dumped from a safety.

    I'm not sure where the rest of the album was mixed. I know Page liked to jump around a lot. Interesting story from Andy Johns about mixing issues at one studio in something I've read or watched.
     
  20. Agora Mike

    Agora Mike Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cleveland USA
    :D Appreciate that!
     
  21. rockclassics

    rockclassics Senior Member

    Location:
    Mainline Florida
    I have been against remixing any of the Led Zeppelin albums but after hearing ajawamnet's remix i am reconsidering my opinion. Someone who knows what they are doing and with the latest and best equipment could really clean up Led Zeppelin II as evidenced by the WLL remix above.

    But I doubt we will ever get to hear an official remix of any of the LZ albums. I just don't see Jimmy Page letting anyone remix any of them. I believe he is too proud of his work and would never want another official mix out there.
     
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  22. Agora Mike

    Agora Mike Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cleveland USA
    Interesting but I don’t really have much to offer on that topic. Ultimately CDs are physical objects pressed by machines played on machines so... :p Who knows? I’m skeptical but open to be convinced. But once ripped to a digital file it becomes much easier to compare.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  23. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it. And like you, I don't dig remixing for the hell of it.

    I just wish someone could convince them to do it. Consumer systems have come a long way and it'd be nice.

    And I have to say here that I'd gladly give them a lossless version to actually release. - it's the only thing I'd consider for releasing it lossless -- they need to do it.
    But like you said... uh....ego's..
    The lossless is so much better than the audio in those vids. Even I - a non audiophile - can hear it.

    I'm a bit of an altruist - I do stuff if it needs to be done and if I can actually do it. Like I've mentioned, I think they could get someone a lot better than me... Just if they put the time and love into it and try to stay true to Page's intent.
     
  24. ajawamnet

    ajawamnet Forum Resident

    Location:
    manassas va 20109
    I recall remixing a TTD thing -
    Remix of the Curse of the Twisted Tower
    I had just done their CD Netherworlds and they wanted to re-release their old stuff. The second CD was recorded and mixed by Kevin at Assembly Line and sounded great... just a remaster.

    These were the peak of the loudness thing in metal and they wanted it to compete. Coll - came out great

    The first CD tho - well... Initially the asked if I could just master that. Ripped it into wavelab and ... well..

    "Can you at least get the pillow off of it?" is what they asked.

    I tried. Marc, the drummer was bumming - if we remix that we gotta dump multiple ADAT's - some songs were 30 tracks across three 8 track ADATS. That'd take a considerable amount of time and I'd have to go get gear to do lock to Sonar (what I used from multitracking at the time)

    So I mentioned - OK, I'm up for it. So we spent weeks getting that to work. Even using a Datasync for SMPTE it still slipped tape-to-tape. Cymbals would start phasing... yuk. So we did one song at a time.

    I mixed one of them - I think it was Land of Illusions - it has this evil sounding thing going on that was flown in at mix - so it wasn't even on the multitrack ADATs. I just grabbed a rip from their CD, fixed it up and used that in the Sonar session.

    Those samples of the remix are a bit thin compared to what the CD sounded like.
     
  25. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    With CD level shifting it doesn't always have to be by the same amount for every track. This is not that uncommon to find and people would plot the values in older threads for CDs that had numerous versions. Early Iron Maiden CDs are an example. There is no analog stage with level shifting so there would not be a D-A-D if that is what you mean by Technidisc using higher quality equipment.
     
    Plan9 likes this.
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