Led Zeppelin: Original CDs vs Remasters

You better hide.

 

^^^

Gerry- Have you compared both? One thing I do like about the remastered II, is that I think Jimmy's guitar stands out a little more. I like Barry's, but the low end seems a little bloomy to me.

 

A late question here, but what are the release dates of the originals?

 

Yes. I have both, and have compared them. You are right. Barry's has some big bass going on. How do these look on the graph? Which one is more balanced? I would love to see you compare some Zeppelin CDs.

 

I compared them all behind the scenes, and came up with the following:

I: Orig CD. RM just sounds more artificial and tweaked. Orig sounds warmer and more natural.
II: RL lp is more similar than different to the original CD. Toss up between orig CD and RM. RM has better mids IMO.
III: Orig
IV: RM isn't bad at all.
HotH: Orig
PG: Orig
Presence: RM isn't bad at all, takes the edge off the orig's mids/highs
ITTOD orig: smoother, more balanced; RM too bassy for ITE, and too trebly for Carouselambra
Coda: WGG: RM too much bass, W&T: RM too bright, ORIGINAL, but something wrong with the left channel of Darlene on the original. Seems muffled vs the R.

 

I don't really care for Presence through Coda, so it's LZI through PG (and TSRTS). All originals for me. I'm surprised to see people minding the bass on Barry's II. Myself, if I can hear their amps smoking like that it's usually a good thing. Barry's III is the same way, just listen to Since I've Been Loving You.

The remasters significantly lose in the dynamics department, and Zep's one of those bands where the dynamics to me really form a huge part of the sound. <shrug>

 

Interesting. You really think the RM II and IV can compete with the originals? I will dig both out and check them out.

 

Yes. If/when you listen again, let me know.

As far as dynamics, I posted details in another thread, but it seems as though there was more compression for the later releases than the earlier.

For the original CDs, the dynamics of the later releases are greater than the earlier. So for the compilations, the dynamics of the later CDs were mashed more so that stuff from LZI had the same dynamics as say from ITTOD. And that carried over to all the individual RM CD releases.

 

Is the West Germany CD for ITTOD the same as the original US CD? This is the copy I have and it has Atlantic on the CD instead of Swan Song. And it's not a Target pressing either.

 

Yup, the same mastering.

 

I have the 'Complete Studio" box, The U.S. mini lp box, and the SHM-CD's. (as well as the ''Classic" vinyl).

My appreciation for this forum will be forever lasting.......for steering me back to the original cds.

For about $50, and guidance from people here, I have some of the most valued recordings in my vast collection.

 

Would someone be so kind as to run through the DR Meter all four discs of the 1990 Zeppelin box plus the 1993 two disc collection that assembles the remaining uncollected tracks? Due to comments in this thread, I am curious as to how similar these discs are to the later single and double 1994 discs. Someone posted the basic track by track DR numbers of the 4 disc box to the Dynamic Range Database, but did not include the peak levels and RMS readings.

Using the Database, I compared many of the albums from the 1993 complete albums box to the corresponding 1994 editions. There is clipping on the 1994 discs that isn't present on the 1993 discs, though it doesn't seem to have affected the RMS, as the RMS numbers are generally the same between the different editions of the same albums. I would like to do further comparisons and analysis of all of the Marino editions with more information.

Please post the DR numbers at the Database or in this thread for the purpose of scientific analysis. You will receive your reward someday.

 

I can't fulfill your request, however, I had a friend just send me some DR numbers from some of his '93 box compared to some of the '94's, and he saw the same thing. A dB or two reduction between them.

This matches with my mental database, that it's the same basic mastering, but the DR numbers have been decreasing over the years as the volume is pushed louder and louder. Yes, even between the original crop circles box, and the earliest box with all the CDs in it.

 

Which 93 box are you referring to, the complete albums or the "uncollected tracks" box?

 

Clanceman turned me on to the Diaments and they are so much better then the 1994 remasters! I hope the new remasters are of the same quality as the originals at least. You would think they would be better this time, but we will see. Thanks again Clanceman you da man!

 

The very first Crop Circles box, oops, 1990. Vs the Complete Studio Recordings, from 1993. The individual 1994 CDs are identical to those in this box I'm pretty sure.

OK, here's some of his numbers: CC box then '93/'94's:

II - Heartbreaker - 11, 10
III - Gallows Pole - 13, 11
Presence - NFBM - 13, 10

I think this had been talked about before. The very best versions of the remasters were on the original crop circles box. I don't know if the two subsequent partial boxes are the same as these though. I think they are, but I'm not sure.

 

Your DR numbers seem to match the numbers that people have posted on the Database. In my comparisons using the limited information that people posted on the Database, it isn't an across the board loss in dynamic range between the 1990 and 1993 masterings. Some tracks lose dynamic range, but most do not. Tracks associated with certain albums, like the 1969 debut album and Presence, in general, seem to have lost more dynamic range than tracks from the fourth album, for instance, in which it seems like all or almost all of those retain the same dynamic range among the 1990 and 1993 masterings.

 

A while back, in a different thread, I picked 2 or 3 favorite tracks from each release. What I saw was that there was more dynamic range reduction between the original CDs and the remasters for the later CDs.

In this case, yup, it's an admittedly small sampling, but I did think it was curious that out of those 3 randomly chosen tracks, all 3 had a reduction just within when each remaster was released, maybe due to clipping as you suggest.

Tonality wise, I liked some remasters more and some of the original CDs more. I compared some random tracks of the MfiT releases (again, from my buddy; I wanted to wait for the CDs ), and in that case, in most cases where I liked the remaster more, I liked the MfiT release even more. But. The MfiT release were even more compressed, peak limited, whatever. I will be curious if the new CDs have the same DR as what's on iTunes. Kind of sucks that it's rare to have the best tonality *and* best dynamic range between the original CDs, the RMs, and the MfiT's.

 

If there is only one mastering of the 1993 complete recordings box, there is no clipping on any of those discs. The individual 1994 CD albums do have clipping. It seems like the clipping doesn't affect the RMS or DR readings at all, though.

 

I guess one question would be: how do the DR numbers from the same tracks compare between the 1990 boxes, the 1993 box of all the albums, and then the 1994 individual releases? I had assumed that the 1993 box was identical to the 1994 individual releases ... Where is that small reduction (or difference, if sometimes it's higher) coming in at? Just a detail, but ...

 

Stupid question: How many versions of the albums were released on CD and how do I tell if the ones I have are original?

 

Some easy ways to identify the originals:

- The CD spines are all white backgrounds, usually with black/dark lettering
- The CD spines do NOT have a wraparound of the design/color scheme of the back cover
- The label sides of the CDs themselves will have plain silver backgrounds, with the Atlantic (or Swan Song) logo on the left, and red and black rings around the outside.
- The label sides of the CDs will NOT have reproductions of the blue-and-green Atlantic label (or a large silkscreen of the Swan Song logo right in the middle of the disc)
- The originals will NOT say "remastered by Jimmy Page and George Marino at Sterling Sound" on the back cover.

There are other ways to tell, and there are some variations here and there, but in my experience these are the quickest, easiest ways to tell them apart 99% of the time.

 

Aren't the original Atlantic labels from the Zeppelin era red and green?

 

Yes, absolutely - "blue" was a typo in my post. Must've been listening to some Miles Davis at the time.

 

So now that Jimmy Page is re-remastering everything I wonder if we'll hear a Zep 1 that doesn't have an azimuth error on the transfer. If not, then the original masters must have been lost. This is something that's bugged me for years!!