Lennon/Spector

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Hotmale3606, Aug 14, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hotmale3606

    Hotmale3606 New Member Thread Starter

    I was listening to the Lennon Anthology box set that came out a few years ago, and what struck me was how much more powerful Lennon's voice is without being mired in Phil Spector's mucky production. Let me say this, and this may be heresy to some: I think Phil Spector is one of the most overrated producers. I just can't stand his production techniques. He ruined Lennon's Imagine album, and tried to ruin Harrison's All Things Must Pass. I find the production on Imagine to be to dense, and muddy, burying Lennon's voice in the mix. The stand alone tracks on the Lennon Anthology, with Lennon alone on the guitar, or at the piano, or just the band running through the track, before Spector mucked it up is so much more effective. As for ATMP, I've read various threads that criticized the remastering process that was used in the final reissue. As I recall, Harrison personally oversaw the remastering, and gave the final approval. Again, with anything Spector is involved with, there is only so much you can do to make the recording cleaner, or clearer.
     
  2. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I'm not a huge Spector fan, but I'd say it's probably not fair to evaluate him based primarily on his work with the ex-Beatles. That stuff was done at the (relative) twilight of his career, and without the absolute creative control he was accustomed to having. And the distinctive Spector sound was just not a good match for the Beatles.

    In my opinion, the Spector mixes of Let it Be and Get Back are superior to the non-Spector single versions, though.
     
  3. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    Spector played hardball. He knew what he wanted, and musicians looked to him to give them the sound that they were looking for. He was a perfectionist nut. He could understand arrangements and translate them to production if necessary. They wanted something that sounded bigger than life. On AM radio, The Ronettes and the Crystals had that sound. If you've ever heard those songs blare through an old AM radio when AM radio was king, you would agree.

    Now, there's amazing stuff you can buy to get great sound at home. To me, a well made Van Morrison LP sounds tons better sonically than a Phillies LP. That's for sure. However, listening to an original copy of "ATMP" on LP, orange Apple, blows my mind. Yes, the voices and bass runs blend into a swirl from the soundstage, which is, at best, illusive.

    "Instant Karma" wasn't meant to sound accurate and beautiful. It was meant to sound louder than it sounded, like a giant 500 feet high, from a simple radio, and wooly, like a 200 person protest in a gym.

    Drama over sonic perfection.
     
  4. lennonfan

    lennonfan New Member

    Location:
    baltimore maryland
    Have you heard the new remixed Imagine disc? I'd say it's overall quite an improvment from the muddy mess that was the original. ATMP, IMO, is ok as it is. Yes, the production is huge with tons of reverb and echo, but I think the goal was for a 'take you to church' kind of sound, which on most of the tracks I think works quite nicely (Awaiting On You All being waaaayyy overdone, tho).
    George could have stripped all the wall of sound away if he wanted to, but I think he wanted to retain the sound of the original. There are some boots out there that let you hear what the sessions sound like minus the heavy handed production if you so desire. I also think that Spector's production on JL/POB is pretty good, too. The quiet introspective parts really sound that way, the bathroom vocals on the ravers seem to fit as well. I also like the Instant Karma production, it has an almost psychedelic quality to it. Lennons' STINYC album is a hideous mess, however, and deserves to be the lowest selling Lennon album ever....but come to think of it, I don't think any of Lennon's albums deserve any production awards. It's really all down to the songs themselves (and many of those don't work either...mind games lp, anyone?:)
     
  5. John B

    John B Once Blue Gort,<br>now just blue.

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I'm glad someone else has noticed that the Rock 'n Roll songs on Anthology do have more power. Slippin and Slidin rocks on Anthology in a way it doesn't in the original production. John was trying to go for a fifties Spectorish feel and was quite successful but John and the band were hot and sound much better uncluttered. I understand that John took quite a bit of control over Phil and stopped in their other work but R N R was where he gave up the production reigns.
    Instant Karma has an amazing swampy drum sound.
    The Walls and Bridges songs on Anthology sound much better than the original release too. That album would benefit greatly from a remix without no-noise, on tube equipment etc of course :cool: )
     
  6. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    Spector is an important part of our musical history, remember almost all of his 60's work was mixed for AM radio. I do agree somewhat on the Lennon, Harrison and Beatles Spector mixes. I always liked it plain. :)
     
  7. Matt

    Matt New Member

    Location:
    Illinois
    I actually like what he did with "All Things Must Pass." I don't think there's any other place where George's music and religious beliefs coalesced more effectively than here, and Phil's production seems to place everything in a large cathedral.

    I'm not a big fan of his work on "Across the Universe," even if John reportedly liked the results. It sounds overproduced and druggy (I wouldn't have slowed it down as much as he did).
     
  8. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Lennon and Spector had a big falling out during those R&R sessions. Phil kind of lost his mind and it is believed stored several of the session tapes in the Pacific ocean. Lennon went back to NY and re-produced several tracks to get his "court-ordered' project completed...
     
  9. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio
    I love Spector. For me personally, judging his work in conventional audiophile terms is a moot point. Those records represent life and emotion - living, breathing musicians playing together to create a sum greater than the parts. I couldn't imagine ATMP with any other producer. I still get chills up my spine when those acoustic guitars kick off "My Sweet Lord". Or, that percussion dancing like there's no tomorrow during "What Is Life". On the contrary, when I hear "My Sweet Lord 2000", I find myself asking...where's the human quality to it?

    Even at his most over-the-top, I find his records "fun"....they take me to another place. "This Could Be The Night" might "sound" dreadful, but it places me in a hot summer night in my mind. Dion's "Baby, Let's Stick Together" sounds like 1976 instantly turned onto 1966. Chugging drums and handclaps creating the mood. Again, a sonic nightmare - but still crank-it-up to 11 fun. Spector's greatest gift was creating excitement. The swirling and plucked strings on "River Deep, Mountain High" are as tense and exciting as anything I've ever heard. The piano and strings on "Jealous Guy" just absolutely melt me in their own tense way.

    Brian Wilson saw (and captured) the magic. Hard to imagine "Today" through "Pet Sounds" without the Spector influence. Spector might be the biggest a-hole, ego-maniac on the planet...but rock music history is a better place because of his recorded legacy, IMHO.
     
  10. ZIPGUN99

    ZIPGUN99 Active Member

    I'm with you, dude. To hear Be My Baby over the speaker
    in the dashboard of a 62 nash rambler is heaven on earth
    for three minutes.
    I dunno if Spector is good fodder for discussion on a
    audiophile forum, but I like plugging a turntable into
    a fender princeton reverb amp and listening to old 45's,
    Spector stuff sounds especially good. Add a little
    reverb if it sounds a bit dry.

    Bob C.
     
  11. Beagle

    Beagle Senior Member

    Location:
    Ottawa
    It's that "blend", isn't it. He had a way of throwing in lots of ingredients and creating a sound that felt so good because of the way everything blended. It was as if some of the combined sounds created specific sonic flavours of their own. You listen for them, they are not there. You don't listen and there they are! It took a certain genius to be able to mix that to proper effect.

    Many 70's producers/artists paid homage, like The Tubes "Don't Touch Me There" and some of Craig Leon's productions with Moon Martin and Lisa Burns.
     
  12. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    I think many of the musicians would agree, now, although they still admire the man, they didn't particularly like the way he managed the sessions all the time. Once you turn something techinical into art, you add the fact that Goldstar Studios had a few cooshy neat little accidental acoustical problems that made the sound charming. Phil milked into this.

    Truthfully, if "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" by the Isley Brothers sounded anyway different, would it be as magical? No. Not at all. Have you ever heard that song on a 45 from a Wurlitzer? The sound rolls down as if the jukebox is going to walk over to you on its own. It's powerful and emotional. Drama.

    This was also when the sound was beyond the song. When the Isley Brothers got this song, they told Phil that it would be more appropriate for the Everly Brothers, because Phil sang it in his key. They had to lower the octive over and over. The song was longer than most hit records. Phil broke grounds.

    I admire his explitations into accidents. He took a small studio, and possibly drove poor Larry crazy getting things right. He wasn't just looking for sounds bouncing in the room, it was how and how long, etc. Then imagine you're working with simplicity and archaic ways. Heck, it's hard as hell to make digital do the exact same thing.

    In most cases, not all, sonic accuracy took a back seat. I'm not that sad about it. Once I hear the maracca sound of "Be My Baby" and the sound of Veronica speaking up into a mic like they placed it too high over her head, it sounds like she's desperately trying to get the take. Her pain, to me, was always genuine. Something is beautiful about songs that sound like that.
     
  13. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    The chances of a typical Spector recording sounding dry and "needing a little reverb" are only slightly less than the chances of my Detroit Lions winning the Super Bowl this year. :)

    Regards,
     
  14. Johnny C.

    Johnny C. Ringo's Biggest Fan

    Location:
    Brooklyn, USA

    Haha! Thanks for this post!

    Be My Baby still brings goosebumps.

    No Nash Rambler around, but is it OK if I listen through the dash of a '68 Ford Falcon?

    I love the turntable into the Fender amp - I know exactly what you mean - I never tire of an old Fender reverb, nice and WET.

    If I ever get my hands on a Fender Reverb stand alone unit I'll put it in line and crank my 45's through it, too!
     
  15. Dob

    Dob New Member

    Location:
    Detroit
    That's what it boils down to - goosebumps.

    I've gotten goosebumps from sound effects CDs (space shuttle launch) played on high buck audio systems, and singles crackling over AM radios.

    I've gotten goosebumps from mono, stereo, CDs, LPs, tubes, solid state, original mixes, remixes, UD1s and UD2s - some more than others, but I get surprised every once in a while.

    I had a direct to disc LP (remember those?) of some Chopin piano music that I found in a cutout bin. It was nothing special, but there was one moment on that record, that lasted about two seconds, where the piano hit a fff crescendo and the sound just leaped out of the speakers. Major goosebumps - I've never heard a piano sound so real. I played that record over and over just to hear that moment, and I had to resist playing just that one spot over and over, cause I didn't want the grooves ruined.

    It's great to see someone like Spector defended on "audiophile" boards like this one. Means that there are a lot of us who haven't lost sight of what this hobby is all about.
     
  16. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    I think our pal sckott means The Righteous Brothers, blue eyed soul's finest duo... That tune is so paranoid, I always wonder why people like it so much - hell, it's downright creepy, but man, when it's dark out and that tune comes on there's nothing else like it - probably Phil's greatest production (not River Deep like all kindsa folks try and say is the Wall O' Sounds' greatest moment)...
     
  17. peterC

    peterC Aussie Addict

    Location:
    sydney
    Coincidently I was listening to the acoustic Lennon demos on disc 1 of Anthology 3 this morning and thought the same thing!

    What a great great voice.
     
  18. Marry a Carrot

    Marry a Carrot Interesting blues gets a convincing reading.

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    That may be true of the initial sessions, but the finished album only has four songs produced by Phil ("You Can't Catch Me," "Sweet Little Sixteen," "Bony Moronie," and "Just Because"). The other nine songs were produced by John.
     
  19. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    Re: Re: Lennon/Spector

    I've said that numerous times...I love John's voice. :agree:
     
  20. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    I can't believe I screwed that up. Massive brain fart. I am SO embarrassed. :(
     
  21. lennonology

    lennonology Formerly pas10003

    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    Not only were they produced by John, but they were completely re-recorded with a different group of musicians a year after the Spector sessions.
     
  22. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    John Lennon never seemed to like the sound of his own voice very much. Choosing Phil Spector to produce his rawest album (POB) is probably a symptom of that. Through his solo career he seemed to be getting over it.

    Remixing Phil Spector productions is a tricky business that I would avoid altogether if possible. They are what they are and they are that way for a reason. I'll allow an exception for "Let it Be", though, due to extenuating circumstances. :)

    Regards,
     
  23. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    Phil Spector's work sounds the best on the original 45's. I have the boxed set, and it sounds okay, but something like "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" was recorded and mixed for AM radio. I think Phil could have done a much better job mixing his stuff for the boxed set. As for the Beatles stuff, a mixed bag. JL/POB is good, the murky sound fits it well. I think ATMP sounds WAAAAYYY better on the original orange label Apple LP. I listened to it last night and my goodness, it sounds so much more natural than the remixed CD. I do agree though, I think overall Phil Spector is a highly overrated producer.
     
  24. lennonology

    lennonology Formerly pas10003

    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    Lennon/Spector/ ATMP ? for Steve

    Let's not get any rumors started! The 2000 reissue of All Things Must Pass was not re-mixed, just re-mastered. I do agree though that vinyl is the way to go as far as ATMP is concerned.

    I'll bet this has been covered before, but I think it's accurate to say that DCC was going to issue ATMP. My question for Steve is did this ever get past the talking stage, and if so - how far? IIRC, it all came down to George authorizing the release, which he apparently never did.
     
  25. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    I agree that it could have been better mastered, but didn't they used the original mixes?

    Regards,
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine