Lineup changes that actually improved the band?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Baba Oh Really, Jan 18, 2015.

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  1. Khamakhazee

    Khamakhazee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    It's probably based on commercial success. I don't recall the radio playing anything off of Bare Trees but that isn't to discredit the album. In fact I really don't like the radio, they hardly ever play any obscure songs from famous bands and there are plenty I like over the hits. Personally I think Pink Floyd with David Gilmour is 100x better without Syd Barrett but there are a bunch of purists out there who prefer him over Roger/David. Sometimes bands take a different route, some for the worse and some for the better.
     
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  2. I think he got kind of a raw deal. Let's be honest, the writing wasn't the best for that album and the band was already in decline. It was already a sinking ship IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  3. And to be fair, different strokes. As much as I love the Green era, Buckingham/Nicks era is more about pop rock craft influenced by The Beach Boys and The Beatles as much as he was about harder rock bands. I hear little to no influence of the Blues in Buckingham/Nicks/McVie era. Those fixated on the Green can't see past that era and appreciate what Buckingham and Nicks brought to the band just as those fixated only on the B&N era can't or won't appreciatemthe earlier music. They are each somewhat mutually exclusive. It's a pity that they can't appreciate both utilities what it is. This dissing of each era is kind of silly.
     
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  4. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    I've long shared such sentiments but one key thing should be remembered, just to show how deep the division lines have been and still are for some. Even going back to the Mac's blues-rock era, there were folks abandoning ship when the band picked up the "Kirwan influence", that is, when the group moved away from the predominant Elmore James style riffs and incorporated more straight forward rock n roll, to include elements of harmony and jamming with the arrival of Danny. This is largely why Jeremy Spencer was not to be found on the Then Play On project, as he was sort of the "man out" when it came to adopting and embracing this new (Green-Kirwan) formula.

    But just as importantly, many fans of the group ditched the now more "progressive" Then Play On style. This is where the first division lines actually formed, especially in the UK and parts of Europe. Some never looked back either. The next lines came with Peter Green leaving the band; and then after that, the arrival of Bob Welch. Some threw in the towel with Green's departure, as he was their focal point in the band. Others didn't care for Welch's style or voice. During these years the going could get rough. Fleetwood Mac was known to play to nearly empty halls at times.

    The Buckingham-Nicks' pop-rock era was simply the latest of the division lines for fans of FM. But as you can see, there were two or three demarcations drawn before that, and with each one there was substantial abandonment (but this was often balanced out by the pick up of new supporters).
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
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  5. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    While it's true they weren't Top 40 chart hits, FM radio did play Welch's "Sentimental Lady" in fairly good rotation, and Kirwan's "Sunny Side Of Heaven" found a decent amount of play too. "Sentimental Lady" in fact could be called a legitimate "hit" on that side of the dial in many areas of the country.
     
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  6. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Most of what you wrote rings true except the last part: FM took a lot of risks in changing their sound as it would have been safer to continue the same sound without a Green on board as they already had an audience.

    The problem here is the creative forces in the band, what are often referred to as the front line personnel, are the ones who generally create the sound, and that sound is comprised of, and dependent on, the unique styles, inputs and vocalizations of those same people. So it's hard to get a Peter Green sound without a Peter Green. When Danny Kirwan came on board, the sound of the band shifted considerably; fortunately Peter Green was looking for that very thing and embraced it. The same thing would have applied to Bob Welch, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks when they came on board. About the only constant the band had by way of sound from the 70's forward was Cristy McVie!

    If they had tried to find someone to simply replace Peter Green by emulating his style and delivery, all they would have succeeded in doing is creating second hand news -- a milk toast imitation of the real thing. You don't just replace a figure as talented and original as Green with readily available candidates. FM did the right thing in forging forward with what pieces they had, and then supplementing that base by picking up new and promising talent (and just like you noted, they've always shown considerable talent in pulling off that very thing). They were lucky they had in their lineup the talents of Kirwan and McVie already; Bob Welch was just what the doctor ordered to round things off, only to be replaced in turn by Buckingham and Nicks.
     
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  7. Indeed, I remember that as well and I heard it so much in the Bay Area I always thought it was a hit.
     
  8. dino77

    dino77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    As a big, big Green fan and big Kirwan admirer, I can certainly appreciate the BN era. Just don't think it comes close in innovation, purity, playing or excitement. When some pop confection is needed to brighten the mood, Rumours or Wings' Greatest are good easy listening albums.
     
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  9. Classicolin

    Classicolin ‘60s/‘70s Rock Fanatic/Crown Kingdom Guitarist

    Location:
    Ohio
    YES

    - Steve Howe replacing Peter Banks.
    Some may argue Rick Wakeman replacing Tony Kaye as well.

    The Moody Blues

    - Justin Hayward and John Lodge replacing Denny Laine and Clint Warwick. It turned a sub-standard R&B group into a top-rate iconic group.

    Uriah Heep

    - Lee Kerslake and Gary Thain joining Uriah Heep for their fourth and most praised LP, Demons and Wizards.

    Savoy Brown

    - Dave Walker becoming their lead vocalist for Street Corner Talking.

    Fleetwood Mac

    - Danny Kirwan joining as the group's third guitarist for Then Play On.

    Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow

    - Cozy Powell, Jimmy Bain and Tony Carey replacing the blokes from Elf for their second album, Rainbow Rising.
     
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  10. John Fell

    John Fell Forum Survivor

    Location:
    Undisclosed

    Savoy Brown is debatable. Some like them better with Chris Youlden on vocals and the guys that formed Foghat in the band.
     
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  11. driverdrummer

    driverdrummer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Irmo, SC
    Brent Mydland in Grateful Dead
     
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  12. veloso2

    veloso2 Forum Resident

    xtc: exit barry andrews welcome dave gregory
     
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  13. Well I would disagree. It wasn't innovative like Green 's but, in their own way, they were as innovative within the confines of Rock-pop. Having said that, the emotional direct "I'm So Afraid" and the mystical elements of Nicks were something powerful in their own right. The pop confection as you call it is much more than that with songs like Go Your Own Way, Tusk, What Makes you Think You're the One, etc. It sells them short. They never pretended to be the blues or the more progressive styled blues of Then Play On.

    It's hardly ALL easy listening and calling it that dismisses the music that Buckingham-Nicks-McVie made during their most creative era. Just because its popular and played a lot doesn't consign it to the pop confection category.

    I love Green, Kirwan and Welch but each brought their own U ique vision to the band. yes, it was Greenie's band and as brilliant as he was (never much of a fan of Spencer and his blues parodies, etc.), that doesn't mean that everything after is lesser than what came before. That's a bit condensing and dismissive to what they created.
     
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  14. dino77

    dino77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Easy listening was pushing it, I agree, and there are a some more intense BN songs. But I never warmed to the mystic of Ms Nicks.
     
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  15. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    :thumbsdow :eek: :thumbsdow
     
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  16. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    :thumbsdow :eek: :thumbsdow
     
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  17. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    "Sentimental Lady" was re-recorded as a Bob Welch single after he left F-M, that's what gets played on the radio. Same goes for "Emerald Eyes".
     
  18. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Not true. The change that made the difference was bringing in outside songwriters. There were no personnel changes from their early 80's slump period.
     
  19. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    If you date back to the Bare Trees era, you'll remember the original Mac version being played on the FM side of the dial a good deal. You lost me completely on "Emerald Eyes." When did that get significant radio play? [Are you talking about "Ebony Eyes" perchance?]
     
  20. As I said, it's different. I'm not a huge fan of Ms. nicks either but some of her best songs work wonders (not seven) within the context of FM songs.

    Who Am I to judge Nicks' as inferior to,what came before?
    depends on the station. It got lots of FM (how funny!) AirPlay in the Bay Area.
     
  21. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    It saw play all over the country on FM.
     
  22. John Fell

    John Fell Forum Survivor

    Location:
    Undisclosed
    You must be joking. :biglaugh:
     
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  23. It certainly changed the flavor of the band in not so subtle ways. Ron always struck me as the Keith in Faces.
     
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  24. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Didn't read back far enough to realize this was covered. :kilroy: Didn't mean to steal your thunder.

     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
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  25. Haristar

    Haristar Apollo C. Vermouth

    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Oasis are a special case - while the quality of their music may have decreased after Bonehead and Guigsy left, the band itself seemed much stronger when it was the Liam, Noel, Gem, Andy and Alan/Zak line up.
     
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