Lineup changes that actually improved the band?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Baba Oh Really, Jan 18, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. dino77

    dino77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    I didn't say anything about inferiority, I say Nicks doesn't float my boat. Neither does Buck most of the time. Both valid.
     
    Atmospheric and wayneklein like this.
  2. Sounds fair to me.
     
    dino77 likes this.
  3. Farmer Mike

    Farmer Mike Forum Resident

    Tony Sheridan was never in the group and I don't think they ever considered staying with him, he was just a paycheck and some exposure.
     
    dino77 likes this.
  4. Lightworker

    Lightworker Forum Resident

    Location:
    Deep Texas
    Kinda like The Velvet Underground and Nico with him playing Nico?
     
  5. dino77

    dino77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Logistically similar, but imo Nico brought something unique to the VU, unlike Sheridan who sounded like your average good Hamburg rocker; nothing the band couldn't cover on their own.
     
  6. Lightworker

    Lightworker Forum Resident

    Location:
    Deep Texas
    True enough. Of course it would have been far cooler if Tony had a flat German accent like Nico. I guess that's why history gave us The Rattles.
     
    dino77 likes this.
  7. Farmer Mike

    Farmer Mike Forum Resident

    Yeah, but without the junk...I think.
     
  8. Lightworker

    Lightworker Forum Resident

    Location:
    Deep Texas
    ...or the cheekbones.
     
  9. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Keep in mind there are two distinct chapters in the Peter Green era. The first features him and Jeremy Spencer doing mostly blues riffs and licks, with a nod to classic American blues (and especially a bluesmaster like Elmore James). Highlights from this period include Black Magic Woman, Shake Your Moneymaker, and Need Your Love So Bad. Fleetwood Mac (1968) and Mr. Wonderful (1968) were the two studio albums they produced during this time frame.

    The second is with the arrival of Kirwan, where their sound shifted to a fusion of blues-rock and straight forward rock-n-roll. This new approach and style can first be heard on Albatross, a stunning instrumental by Green that owes a lot to Kirwan's input. Most of the groups' early hits came from this period (Albatross, Man Of The World, Oh Well, The Green Manalishi). Album-wise, it starts with Fleetwood Mac In Chicago (1969) and Then Play On (1969) and concludes with Live In Boston (at the Tea Party) from 1970, a fantastic live set.

    An early compilation album, English Rose (1969), effectively bridges the two chapters.
     
    Ern likes this.
  10. Fastnbulbous

    Fastnbulbous Doubleplus Ungood

    Location:
    Washington DC USA
    I doubt many people under the age of 30 even know there was more than one era... I never liked the Rumours incarnation -- hated it in fact due to excruciating overexposure -- but have always had a grudging appreciation for Buckingham's playing. There was one amusing episode in the mid-90s when PBS of all places was airing simultaneous performances of Stones and Fleetwoods concerts for their fundraising efforts (two separate PBS affiliates) and to my great shock I found myself gravitating to the Fleetwood show. The Stones were just walking though overlong versions of "Satisfaction" and "Brown Sugar" that you knew they'd already played a thousand times too many, and I kept flipping back to see LB playing these amazing guitar lines. Then I'd flip back and Jagger was still prancing around going "yeah, yeah, yeah, woooo!" and Keef was off to the side looking like the couldn't be bothered. Didn't know half the Fleetwood tunes, didn't even like them all, but LB was enjoying himself and playing great.

    I saw the Welsh-era Fleetwoods on the Kirshner show or something doing their "Bermuda Triangle" thing. Totally different vibe to the band back then. Interesting player, Welsh. Really liked "Emerald Eyes" and "Hypnotized" better than anything the band did in the Buckingham/Nicks period, but that's just me...
     
    zelox likes this.
  11. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    They have to be right up there, dating back to '67 without any substantial breaks in between. And the two still get along great - how often do you see that in rock or pop bands?! :righton:

    Another longtime duo that comes to mind is John Lodge and Graeme Edge of The Moody Blues, who date back to '66 as a tandem, but of course their style is somewhat different as a rhythm section (with Lodge being a songwriter and singer to boot). They also took a break off between 1974 and 1978 by way of a band sabbatical. But you know, that does make for an interesting query: who is the longest surviving rhythm section in rock? Note that I took out the word "original" as neither John McVie nor John Lodge are the original bassists in those bands.

    Classic early B-N photo there with Waddy. Here's a brief but interesting snippet review of their performance at the Troubadour from back in November 1973 from Billboard:

    Buckingham-Nicks, a Polydor act, is a lackluster male-female duo acoustic duo who towards the end of their set showed a couple of songs with chart possibilities. Keyboard and drums would help focus their on-stage guitar sound.
    --Nat Freedland


    Wonder if Mr. Freedland ever revisits those words. :laugh: :nyah:

    Well, tired really of trying so hard and not quite making the "big time." They weren't always playing to packed arenas and halls back then. Just paying the bills could get pretty dicey during that period (and then the fiasco with the fake Mac :realmad:). But by hard work on the circuits, and turning out surprisingly strong LPs, they slowly rebuilt the audience they lost back home in England and across much of Europe after Green departed, with Kirwan and Welch leading the way.

    Welch's solo work is admittedly a bit uneven but he did produce some interesting material. Listen to "Blue Robin" or "Heart Of Stone" from his Paris days for starters. I myself liked those two pop-rock-cum-quasi-disco projects he did with producer John Carter in the late 70's. I thought they were pretty classy affairs, even if they were commercial compromises, and not exactly what Bob would have done had he had complete artistic control back then. But it certainly showed he could still turn out plenty of hook laden ditties. Creating a Top 10 remake hit out of "Sentimental Lady" was icing on top. I saw him in concert back then and he could still carry the day, arguably better than ever.
     
  12. With all the due respect to Peter Criss, I think that the "Elder" lineup is the best in "Kisstory".
     
  13. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    I totally understand your take on LB, and know where you're coming from. It was a distinct departure from the "guitar front" style of the earlier Mac, even if it was Bob Welch who paved the way in that regard. It's easier for me to empathize when the criticism is based on the style and output of the B/N era, as opposed to LB's prowess on the instrument. I also wish Lindsey had followed the cues from the axes in the outfit who preceded him, in jamming or improv-ing more. In that regard, having a rhythm guitarist as accompaniment might have helped.

    No swipe of Bob meant in any way, it's just that most of the time he provided rhythm guitar backing to Kirwan and later Bob Weston, both of whom did the majority of the heavy lifting in concert. But I'm certainly not implying he couldn't handle lead lines when he chose to, because he could. He wasn't a "classic" rhythm guitarist in the mold of let's say Tom Fogerty of CCR, where he basically provided strum filler for JC. Bob was a much more active player, and frequently added lead licks and tasty flourishes that stood out and set him apart from your typical backing rhythmist. His work on HAHTF alone is exemplary, some of his best stuff ever with FM, as are his solo inputs on French Kiss where again he provides all the guitar work, lead and rhythm. He also provided some lead licks on each of the FM projects he was involved in (the tune "Future Games" being a standout example, where he and Danny weave that thing to perfection).

    As for his songwriting, he took on a pretty daunting challenge in assuring the band he could cover for the loss of Kirwan, something Mick dreaded at the time, and with the help of Christine of course, who also had to step up her game. It wasn't easy going at first, as evidenced by the Penguin release. But by Mystery To Me, he had hit full stride as a songwriter, and never really looked back.

    Stevie certainly didn't do herself any favors damaging her voice and nasal passages by the early 80's with excessive coke use. Her sound when she first appeared on the scene was fresh though, and Buckingham's guitar enhancements were always tasteful. For me, when the in-house soap opera got out of hand as the 70's gave way to the 80's, that's when I climbed off the FM bandwagon. But I still have a soft spot for the White Album 1975 and Rumours, even with all the spoiling overexposure they've been subject to over the years, simply because I can remember how breezy and original they sounded back when they were first released, in an era where disco and new wave acts were beginning to take over.

    I have mixed feelings over Tusk, felt it was LB becoming a bit too self-indulgent for his own good, but I know where his head was at in doing what he did. After that I think Fleetwood Mac slowly but surely became too comfortable for their own good with the measure of success they had tasted, and started turning out a lot of wholly predictable and tame/lame MOR material. By then though, I considered them yesterday's news as they meandered ever closer to oldies territory.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
    dino77 likes this.
  14. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    That's of course it in a nutshell. Excruciating can't be overemphasized.
     
    dino77 likes this.
  15. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    My argument has always been the same -- they likely would have been had they given Taylor enough free rein to really strut his stuff and grow within the framework of the band. That includes giving the man rightful credits for the tunes he helped fashion. But since none of this was ever given freely or adequately, we'll never know. The Stones could have been the perfect vehicle for him considering they already possessed quality songwriters, but it would also have required an implicit agreement to let the guy spread his wings, and without the fear of being clipped at every other turn. Richards never quite knew how to embrace him as a musical brother, constantly waffling between admiration and outright intimidation, and Jagger failed him in not crediting him sufficiently and when it could have made all the difference in the world.

    Now you have to admit, the tunes with MT's input and stamp on Tattoo You are the best things that came from that release, correct? I mean "Waiting On A Friend" is worth the price of purchase alone, is that not true? To me, it was the last really great Rolling Stones single to come out of that outfit. Why else would they choose to close out that album on anything but a Tayloresque high note?
     
    vinyldreams, John Fell and Tristero like this.
  16. malco49

    malco49 Forum Resident

    wouldn't say improved but they certainly got different and not worse.
     
    dino77 likes this.
  17. Heck, it would've been a good note for them to close out their career on.
     
    zelox likes this.
  18. Fullbug

    Fullbug Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    Could that be Waddy Wachtel on the right?
     
  19. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Not correct. "Waiting on a Friend" and "Tops" are decent songs but not my favorites on the album...

    No, it's not. It's a good song but not one I really like - I prefer the rockin' side 1 of "Tattoo You" to side 2...
     
    stef1205 likes this.
  20. AppleCorp3

    AppleCorp3 Forum Resident

    I really enjoy Christine McVie and felt her songwriting really took off in the BN era. I like Stevies stuff too, and much of her solo output.

    As for Linsdey, I think I prefer his solo material to his FM songs. His playing is always stellar, tasteful, and had great tone.

    I guess I can turn off the "overexposure" aspect of the rock media or it just doesn't bother me. Not a reason (for me) to dislike something.
     
  21. rockledge

    rockledge Forum Resident

    Location:
    right here
    I don't really think it bothered them to not be "big time". I think FM was a bit like Canned Heat, a band that just wanted to do good music but was constantly plagued with undesirable and often bizarre circumstances.
    I can tell you first hand that being in a band that constantly struggles against the tide of personnel problems , illness, and problems with those who are the bands customers gets really old.
    I admire Both Mr McVie and Mr Fleetwood for not simply throwing in the towel when most guys would have.

    What complicates things even more for FM is after a long struggle getting insane popularity only to have people deride the band for committing the sin of actually getting rich and famous, which apparently is taboo.
    It must be a bit disconcerting for them to get derided for being creative enough to gain massive popularity only to have future generations who often are fans of bands who are trying to get rich and famous but never do give them guff for being successful.

    It seems that being one of the most talented musicians on the planet has become somewhat of a curse for Lindsey Buckingham in a music climate that seems to abhor true talent.

    FM deserves an award for running up hill long after the soles of their shoes wore out.

    Also, there is no bad FM period or personnel lineup. Even on the bands weakest albums they still have made something that has a following.
    Some people prefer this incarnation or that one, but all incarnations of the band have a following. Pretty remarkable considering their history.
     
  22. cgw

    cgw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Under 30 in 1990. I was under 30 then and while I knew a couple of the songs I did not really know it was FM.
    Under 30 today may not know FM period.
     
  23. Fastnbulbous

    Fastnbulbous Doubleplus Ungood

    Location:
    Washington DC USA
    They may not know they know them, but they can't help but hear stuff from Rumours in the grocery store and stuff. It's muzak for the new millennium.
     
  24. Atmospheric

    Atmospheric Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eugene
    I've decided that ultimately all I can ever comment on with decent accuracy is whether a given piece of music or musician moves me or not. Trying to apply objective criteria such as "good" or "bad" is ultimately a fool's errand when it comes to that wonderful indescribable food for the soul that is music. Oh sure, I use "good" and "bad" as lazy shorthand for "it moves me" or "it doesn't move me," respectively.

    So all I can really say is that Bob Welch is my favorite FM guitarist. I like him even more than Peter Green. I do think characterizing him as primarily a rhythm guitarist behind Danny Kirwin is not very accurate. For example the song Future Games, the signature sweep riff is clearly BW not DK. I actually hear a very respectful interplay between those guitarists on that record, not a subservient lead vs. rhythm relationship. Even with Bob Weston in the band, I still hear a lot of that same interplay. I think Miles Away is a great example of that. Also, on Hypnotized, that is clearly Welch playing lead throughout the song, not Weston.

    Now live footage from those eras definitely does validate that Welch was taking a back seat to Weston a lot of the time. But during that final 1973 Welch was the only guitarist. I saw the second to last show, and the band's playing that evening was quite rarified indeed. I've listened to boots of that show, and I'm not imagining it. But boots earlier that same year definitely reveal a band trying to find its footing. The earlier boots are more tentative and less articulate, especially BW's playing.

    So bottom line I hear what you're saying. I agree with some but not all of it. Something about BW's playing, singing and writing just moves me in a way that no other FM front man does. That's all I really know for sure. I certainly would never characterize LB as a bad guitarist, singer or songwriter. I've seen live footage that for me is polite enough, but just not transcendent. All I know for certain is that LB doesn't really inspire or move me much.
     
  25. zen

    zen Senior Member

    Moody Blues - Patrick Moraz

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    ...and by the looks of these two photographs, it sure doesn't look like Patrick Moraz was a hired hand.

    I find it ironic that Patrick Moraz has been removed from all existence of being a member and shunned historically on all material currently released by the Moody Blues. Moraz was able to fill Pinders shoes technically and the recordings he was involved with (1981-1988) were classic (and successful) in their own right. It was the 80's era that truly turned me onto the Moody Blues. Like it or not, if Moraz had not been one of the top keyboardists of the 70's and 80's, there would have been no Moodies in the mid to late 80's, and onward.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine