‘Listening through the system not to the system’

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Shiver, Jul 6, 2016.

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  1. sunrayjack

    sunrayjack Forum Resident

    spent the night" listening to the music" smooth jazz with the new open baffle speakers, if you never tried them you should check them out.
    I only thought I had some really good speakers until I built these, talk about not hearing the system,pure music, sweet!:bdance:
     
  2. Destroysall

    Destroysall Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix
    I think this philosophy came into practice when I sold my hi-end headphone gear. I was forced to use Apple EarPods for a short while, and it helped me appreciate the music alone over how the headphone reproduced the music. Analytical listening has its reasons, but I feel its place is in a studio versus hi-fi recreational listening. The music is what I listen to. When I critically listen, it's great to hear nuances, but it's only one part of the listening session.
     
    Shiver likes this.
  3. Destroysall

    Destroysall Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix
    I think this philosophy came into practice when I sold my hi-end headphone gear. I was forced to use Apple EarPods for a short while, and it helped me appreciate the music alone over how the headphone reproduced the music. Analytical listening has its reasons, but I feel its place is in a studio versus hi-fi recreational listening. The music is what I listen to. When I critically listen, it's great to hear nuances, but it's only one part of the listening session.
     
  4. Destroysall

    Destroysall Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix
    I think this philosophy came into practice when I sold my hi-end headphone gear. I was forced to use Apple EarPods for a short while, and it helped me appreciate the music alone over how the headphone reproduced the music. Analytical listening has it's reasons, but I feel it's place is in a studio versus hi-fi recreational listening. The music is what I listen to. When I critically listen, it's great to hear nuances, but it
     
  5. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I would encourage the OP and others (whether or not they think it is relevant to their listening experience) to try to hear a pair of properly working old Quad '57s with appropriate amplification and a good source. The speaker has huge limitations but is pretty much the most transparent speaker (if not damaged or improperly set up) I have ever heard. It is really a benchmark for a see-through quality, assuming the source material is decent. You have to ignore the rolled off bass (which can sound bloated if set up wrong), the beaminess of the high frequencies and the inability of the speaker to play loud. Despite all that, it has an uncanny-no reproduction device in the way- quality on voice, small scale jazz and classical. It has been used for decades as a reference for other high quality speaker builders. It is not a real world speaker to own if you listen to rock, or want to listen at high db, and most efforts to supplement it, using subwoofers and ribbon tweeters, don't really work in my estimation (I tried). But, it is really worth hearing the speaker as a reference. It helped educate my "ears" many years ago and I'm not sure it has been surpassed for what it does well.
     
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  6. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    Perhaps it is a nice idea to posture ourselves to listen to the music rather then, the gear... Now if only I couldn't care less what model/brand of guitar George Harrison was playing on the song I'm Looking Through You (Rubber Soul). But ironically, I'm sure glad he cared.

    Happy Listening!
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
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  7. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Sorry to hear about the theft of your Vandersteen,s and hope that you will enjoy the new one,s
    I have used Leak 2060,s for a very long time. I love the sound they produce.
    If they were to be replaced i,m not sure what I would replace them with. Good luck.
     
    Dino likes this.
  8. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    Some great responses here (been away).

    Part of it is definitely the art of removing yourself from hearing the gear to just focus on the music as such. Since getting in to this pursuit more I do marvel and partly envy friends with really crappy systems who just love what they hear. How liberating. I remember my first 'proper hifi' - a Kenwood CD/tape/radio midi-system I bought from a discount store when starting uni in the mid-90s. It looked like Darth Vader with flashy lights, had a three-disc-rotation system; and after mounting the speakers on el-cheapo stands, adjusting the EQ to smiley face 'Rock', and cranking R.E.M. up to room-busting levels - woofer cones bouncing in and out... well it was the best hifi in the world, and went on to bring years of musical discovery and pleasure. There's so much to be said for it.

    At some point then I also picked up a Richer Sounds catalogue and started to pre-plan a system for when I was settled and earning; wondering how good it could get. But never to detriment of disliking the amazing Kenwood.

    The critical ear and approach wasn't developed; but then nor was the sense of hew highs it brings.

    Anyway...

    I totally agree with this, and have also come to favour the slightly warmer side of neutral as opposed to clinical - both of which could be argued as transparent. It is that bit more real. The thing though is - IME anyway - you can still have warmer or cooler sounding components, or slightly more or less detailed, that still may or may not have that perceived 'see-through' quality.

    This sounds a great call. I've never actually heard any panel speakers but have always been intrigued due to such references regarding transparency and sense of realism. When considering speakers to buy I pretty much wrote them (panels in general) off due to the reasons you mention (and my budget for larger models), but always felt I'd get hooked-in to something if hearing them as a reference. I'll endeavour to, with the Quads if possible.

    ps - the Kenwood system died a long time ago but I still have the speakers!, hooked up to the TV system. Not the best, but they solider on and I couldn't let them go.
     
    JeffMo likes this.
  9. P2CH

    P2CH Well-Known Member

    With all of the discussions about how speakers should be moved away from the walls, I moved my MMG's from their current location, 2' from back and side walls, to about 4 feet from the walls. They sounded clearer but they lost feeling.

    They might have given a clearer representation of the material but I didn't like how they sounded. They might have been too clear for my taste but maybe what others would enjoy, consider correct or more accurate?

    I also feel they need a back reflective area to bounce the back waves for better low frequency response. They also sound louder and fuller when capturing the sound coming from the rear of the panel. Being moved too far from the walls lost this effect. In my opinion, MMG's need all the added reinforcement they can get due to their lower efficiency.
     
    Shiver likes this.
  10. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    Gibson J-160E. :D
     
    VinylRob likes this.
  11. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    The relative placement re: the back walls also affects imaging too. Did you notice any changes there?
     
  12. P2CH

    P2CH Well-Known Member

    Not so much change in imaging to me. They just sounded clearer but I missed the fullness. I feel they can be too clear at times anyway. Not that is a bad thing, though it's not an easy thing to describe. Maybe my hearing doesn't like so much detail? And to me, the MMG's have plenty of that. Where a box speaker may produce high end, the MMG's produce an almost scratchy detail due they are so fast. But, that's my description.

    My Altecs though, man, what an awesome sounding speaker system. When I want to be blown away with dynamic sound, that's where I go. The horns are amazing.

    I wish the MMG's didn't need so much power. But, that's what makes them sound like they do. The Altecs run with 30 watts and they're kicking.
     
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  13. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    I skipped over this thread a few times due to its "new age" title, but I'm glad I finally read it. I am totally sympathetic to this idea. All I ask of my playback equipment is to present a believable illusion. To convey the essence of the music and get my foot tapping. My two systems -- one costing about $1500 and the other 10x that much -- each do this in different ways; I can happily listen to either. I have to say, though, it's much more likely I'll achieve this state of mind if I'm a bit intoxicated.

    Now playing:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    I stopped listening to the system years ago. Now I listen to music, if it sounds right than the equipment must be right.
     
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  15. While I have a very nice system that I enjoy immensely, some of my most magical music experiences have come while playing CDs on my puny kitchen system while cooking. Music has always been the driving force and I don't expect that to ever change.
     
  16. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Forum Resident

    That amp will give it to you for real, as they say. I would love to have a Leak setup someday, as their amps should be perfect for powering my Wharfedale W90's (Sold at the same time as the TL's). I'm using a Fisher 800C at the moment, which is already a good match, but I would like to pair them with an old British amp someday, and Gilbert Briggs was a close friend of Leak's founder and originally wanted Leak to handle the amplification at all of those 'live vs recorded' events he staged at places like Carnegie Hall, but Mr. Leake turned him down (Quad did it instead).

    I would love to have a Leak/Wharfedale system someday, plus an old idler-drive turntable (I already have the speakers and the idler-drive... Just need myself a Leak). The old British hi fi gear of the early to mid '60's has a rich, natural, organic sound to it that I fell in love with, which is why I got into Wharfedale, but you also have Leak, Goodmans, Quad, etc., not to mention Tannoy. Personally, I like the warm, lush sound of Wharfedale, Leak, and Goodmans. I prefer a cozy sort of hi fi sound. It has to have that warm, inviting natural. That plus a heavy dose of clarity, richness, and dynamics adds up to what I call realism. Wharfedale's modern-day speakers are completely-different from the old ones, but in a good way. My new Dentons have a kick to the low-end that the old Wharfedales don't (When listening to certain heavier rock and metal music from the late '70's and early '80's, that bass kick is yet another part of that realism, and the old tube-era Wharfedales are too-polite for that stuff IMO... However, the old ones sound incredibly-real playing the earlier tunes from, say, 1974 and earlier, so my plan is to one day have two types of speakers: Polite.. and slammin' :D ).
     
  17. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    The sound of 1960,s loudspeakers and amplifiers are in a class of their own! As you say musical ,warm and lifelike!
     
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  18. While I can confidently say my current system is much more accurate and I get much more detail/information from my vinyl playback, my favourite system was a Pioneer SA-9500II Integrated, Revolver Red turntable with Shure V15 Type III and Klipsch Heresy Anniversary edition (30th year?...can't remember) speakers. This was in mid-eighties.
     
  19. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Forum Resident

    That's a huge part of it for me. The musicality has to be there, or I walk, and some gear, while enjoying great clarity and dynamics, is just not very........... enjoyable.

    The old Fisher amps and receivers have it, and so do the old Dual turntables, and both brands work really-well with the old Wharfedales, so I was going for a kind of musicality trifecta. I like a system that pulls me in like a warm, inviting tractor beam. Leak and Thorens are good for this, like maybe a bookshelf system of a Leak amplification and speakers combined with a TD-124 or something similar and not quite as expensive. There's also University here in the states. Among the most-inviting speaker systems ever made.
     
  20. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    For me, reducing, not adding to, the system was crucial. Keeping it simple, but high quality has reaped rewards. Adding all the fripperies that infect the hobby just got in the way, so stripping back was key. Delighted with the outcome.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
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  21. Lester Best

    Lester Best Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Bklyn NY
    Not to thread crap, but the same could be said for vinyl listeners. The only way to deal with the clicks & pops, surface noise & static charge is to listen thru it. A gazillion $ record cleaning machine might or might not help.
     
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  22. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    On another thread on "best ever CD sound" Hubert Jan " found that a Panasonic SL-S120 portable CD player sounded better than high end players , because they do not use OP amps.
    Well , as we are extolling the virtues of 1960,s amplifiers/speakers/ turntables, the suggestion intetested me so i bought one, and guess what, he was right.
    The sound produced by this little player through my Leak TL12 plus x2 is warm, sweet yet detailed, and its musical.
    Musicality is the key i believe to a satisfactory and enjoyable system that will provide endless years of listening.
    It does not have to be expensive just
    Have the vital "tingle Factor".
     
  23. Fiddlefye

    Fiddlefye Forum Resident

    If what you often find yourself listening to is more the system than the music then either the system or the listening habits need a re-think.
     
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  24. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Excellent topic! I'm excited to contribute my two cents. I have a background as a musician, DJ, and recording/mixing/mastering/live sound engineer, and as critical a listener as I am, I am almost always very content with the fidelity of very inexpensive audio systems--in fact, in my experience I have found that getting too crazy about component matching without having a thorough understanding of audio electronics is more likely to produce disappointing results than settling for a simpler, less expensive rig, perhaps with an EQ (I know how much you audiophiles hate equalization). I liked @Johnny Vinyl's quote above; listening to oldies on a clock radio in the kitchen while cooking is one of my favorite listening experiences!

    It's ironic because while audiophiles are spending all this time and money critiquing and improving their systems, I often don't find them to be as critical listeners as me. *shrugs* I strongly feel that the vast majority of 'character' a sound recording takes on comes from (obviously the performance but also) the recording and mixing of an album. If the meat is the performance, the potatoes are the recording and mixing processes--mastering is like butter and the playback system is like salt when I compare them to these other ingredients. I'm a member here because I love music and quality sound reproduction, but I honestly think most audiophiles sweat the small stuff too much.
     
  25. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    This doesn't surprise me. Getting the right mix for me has always been more about listening on multiple systems than trying to find a singular 'ideal' system.
     
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