Lost John Coltrane Recording From 1963 Will Be Released June 29th

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Mazzy, Jun 7, 2018.

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  1. correctodad

    correctodad Forum Resident

    I'm undecided also but mainly because I'm wondering how essential the alternate takes are. I find that albums that feature multiple versions of the same track don't make for great listening and tend to get played once or twice and that's it.
    Whichever edition I do go for, it will be on vinyl.
     
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  2. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    Rudy recorded everything direct to two track stereo after 1958, but continued to record as if mono was the primary release, monitoring in mono. So whilst the mono masters were created from the stereo tapes, they would not suffer from any of the problems that a fold from stereo could normally cause.

    The mono would be what Thiele and Van Gelder heard in the studio as they created the record.

    There has been a strong attempt to paint post 58 Van Gelder monos as inferior, it is far from the truth.

    More of an audiophile issue with this tape would be its 7 and a half inch 30 ips nature. I imagine most won’t here the problem though.
     
  3. Dan Steele

    Dan Steele Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago suburbs
    I’m with you. Have a lot of Coltrane, excited about this release especially the untitled tracks, but don’t need the alternate versions.
     
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  4. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
  5. AxiomAcoustics

    AxiomAcoustics "The enemy is listening"

    Right, and those "folded" tapes were often referred to as "monaural masters made 50/50 from stereo master". But there's discrepancy between what Michael Cuscuna has said about RVG's abandonment of running both a mono and stereo deck at that point. And this fits into the current release date-wise.

    As late as 2004 Rudy is on record as saying that he ran two Ampex decks: a single/full track mono (which is what was monitored and mixed/balanced, as you mentioned) and a two-track "stereo" unmonitored deck. This during the very period when this new release was tracked. So based on that information he was running two decks for this "lost" session. He also mentions that most of the mono masters were destroyed once the industry finally committed to stereo releases around this time.

    So, it's quite possible that this tape (reference copy for Trane) was a direct monitored and mixed/balanced copy of the mono master. Which I find to be a positive thing. I dont think anyone here would ever see a mono of the era as inferior, quite possibly the oposite. (I was listening to Lightnin' Hopkins "Goin' Away" the other day, recorded by RVG, and wished it was mono, and look how wonderful the recent Miles Davis Bootleg release with Coltrane sounds and stages.) The only ones who may have trouble with "mono" would be the label, who try not to reveal/tout such things as they fear the general public will see it as inferior or archaic, of even not compatible with their "stereo". For me, I'd love to hear this in mono, it's not often we get new/vintage studio materal in mono, properly monitored and mixed. And the 7.5 ips transfer doesn't mean it won't sound great, plenty of instances in the past where they sound fantastic.
     
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  6. Tom H

    Tom H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kapolei, Hawaii
    I'm with you. I know I'm buying the deluxe for the extra stuff. If it doesn't have the photo from the single-disc in the packaging somewhere, then I'll buy the single-disc version as my "play copy."
     
  7. Tom H

    Tom H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kapolei, Hawaii
    Only if it's added later by the mastering engineer.
     
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  8. Archtop

    Archtop Soft Dead Crimson Cow

    Location:
    Greater Boston, MA
    I tend to agree that, from a sitting down and simply listening standpoint, multiple takes can be laborious. But, I find that at least about half the time I'm listening to great improvisers such as 'Trane or Monk, or in the rock genre, Grateful Dead, King Crimson, Zappa or Deep Purple (Mark II), I do so in a more academic way. So the evolution of the track becomes the focus of my listening as opposed to simply being immersed in the sound. Put another way, I haven't decided on which to get, nor on the medium.

    And an octave below to boot. :hide:
     
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  9. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    I'm pretty sure all the stuff Cuscuna has said about 1958 and Van Gelder only running two-track during sessions after that is only with respect to Blue Note. For Impulse, there's that instance of when a mono tape was found for Coltrane/Hartman decades after its release, so it's possible that Impulse/ABC/Bell Sound wanted Van Gelder to make mono master tapes from the two-track master session reel. But there's still the possibility that he did run a full-track deck simultaneously with the two-track deck for labels other than Blue Note after 1958.

    What's more, yes, I've heard that Coltrane got 7" reference mono reels from Van Gelder. Were those duplicates made from the two-track session master or were they created simultaneously with the two-track master? I don't think there's a definitive answer out there for this, not for Impulse at least. We picked this apart here on the forum a while ago with respect to A Love Supreme (Hoffman was part of that conversation) and IIRC the conclusion was that Impulse/ABC/Bell Sound may have required that Van Gelder make mono master tapes, which may or may not have been duplicated from the two-track session master.

    Do we know if these are 7" reels?
     
  10. Tom H

    Tom H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kapolei, Hawaii
    Sorry, I couldn't resist.
     
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  11. Archtop

    Archtop Soft Dead Crimson Cow

    Location:
    Greater Boston, MA
    Nor could I. Now, back to 'Trane.
     
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  12. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    Pretty sure a mono production master wouldn’t be a 7 inch reel.
    I’ve never seen one.
     
  13. AxiomAcoustics

    AxiomAcoustics "The enemy is listening"

    I think you could be correct on the BN issue but as you noted it's difficult to say for sure across the board because both Cuscuna's and Van Gelser's language, depending on what you read, is somewhat equivocal. Some of his allusions make you think he was running two decks for all his other projects. In fact, he called the 2 track machine a "back up" even at the time of this recording. I think the closest possibility is what I had said earlier today:

    As late as 2004 Rudy is on record as saying that he ran two Ampex decks: a single/full track mono (which is what was monitored and mixed/balanced, as you mentioned) and a two-track "stereo" unmonitored deck. This during the very period when this new release was tracked. So based on that information he was running two decks for this "lost" session. He also mentions that most of the mono masters were destroyed once the industry finally committed to stereo releases around this time.

    Rudy is at least clear in stating that the "Hartman" session had two decks running, both mono and two track. And that he and Thiele were monitoring that mono feed, and that Rudy was mixing for that mono deck/tape. That Hartman session took place the day after the "Lost" session, so one would think that he was also running both decks for that as well. It's speculation of course but that would make it likely that Trane's copy would have come directly from that mono session master.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
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  14. AxiomAcoustics

    AxiomAcoustics "The enemy is listening"

    Wait, Jimmy Garrison wasn't running an Electro-Harmonix Octave pedal at the time?

    :laugh:
     
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  15. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    Elvin's top hi-hat is smaller than the bottom one, so a 13" inside a 14," or a 14" inside a 15." it makes it easier to get a strong "chick" sound from your left foot, and it really cuts. I don't know if he did it all the time during the Coltrane years.

    What are those mics on the kit? Anybody know?
     
  16. AxiomAcoustics

    AxiomAcoustics "The enemy is listening"

    Nice catch! Yeah, I've messed around with that in the past. Makes it easier to eliminate the dreaded air-lock.
     
  17. DaveinMA

    DaveinMA Some guy

    Except for Untitled Original 11383 and Untitled Original 11386, the whole thing is alternate takes.
     
  18. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Agreed, no way...dunno if my post made it sound like I thought that...what could have been happening is that he may have been feeding a signal direct to the 7" reference machine from the board while simultaneously recording to the two-track master.
     
  19. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Based on his comments in the liner notes of the Coltrane/Hartman reissue, Van Gelder did seem to think that he was recording direct to full-track (and two-track) for Impulse at that time. And while I would normally take his word for it, I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that he was "misremembering" this, and that the mono master for that session was actually made from summing the two-track, so in that case the two-track machine would have been the only (master) reel running during the session (the 7" reference reel may or may not have been made from either a full-track or two-track master reel).

    IIRC, Hoffman was under the impression that ABC/Bell Sound wanted a mono master tape for their vaults, but that doesn't mean Van Gelder recorded to full-track; he technically could have recorded to two-track only, cut both the mono and stereo master lacquer disks from the two-track tape (as he would have with the 50/50 system for Blue Note), then made a mono master reel for ABC and Bell sound from the two-track master at their request. And in this case, he could have still been monitoring in mono all along.

    The other possibility is of course that he was recording to full-track and two-track simultaneously for Impulse, though the issue of the 7" reference machine is independent of that, really, whether or not that tape would have been duplicated from a master session reel (either full-track or two-track) or not.
     
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  20. Archtop

    Archtop Soft Dead Crimson Cow

    Location:
    Greater Boston, MA
    I guess I've more or less decided to go for the 2-CD version. It's only a few dollars more than the single-CD, whereas the LP pricing differential is (quite understandably) much larger. Another way of looking at this is that more 'Trane I've never heard is better than less 'Trane I've never heard; whether or not I spend any significant time listening to the alternate versions. But keep the budget within constraints. There are going to be Grateful Dead, Dylan and probably more I'll want to get in the next six months or so, so the dollars matter.
     
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  21. Yayastone

    Yayastone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Monterey, CA.
  22. Jeff Kent

    Jeff Kent Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Kisco, NY
    I wonder if the title is in reference to the 1965 Half Note recordings, One Up One Down.
     
  23. Lonson

    Lonson I'm in the kitchen with the Tombstone Blues

    That was my assumption, especially as the track "One Up, One Down" is included.
     
  24. HayesWeighsIn

    HayesWeighsIn Member

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    The John Coltrane Facebook page just posted an image of the deluxe vinyl package - and it will have that amazing image from the standard version's cover as an insert.
     
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  25. Raysdeathmachine

    Raysdeathmachine Forum Resident

    I believe that is a sizzle or "swish" cymbal.
     
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