Lost: The Sixth and Final Season-"The End" (Part 3)

I'd include the writers in that group.


Your reply to me used the "it's about the characters" dodge, which I expressly said doesn't forgive dangling plot details. It can't only be "about the characters" with rotating unexplainable weirdness...unless the entire series was based on "man against himself" conflict and then it would be justified not explaining the weirdness. But that's not what happened.

We saw "man against nature", "man against man" and "man against himself", and while you want to just say it was all about the latter conflict, it wasn't. It's quite easy to write a story with tons of conflict by throwing out buckets of stuff that won't make sense in hindsight, and having the characters deal with it, and that's what they writers did. In the middle of the third season, we got "we are writing an ending that incorporates a plan we've had all along", and then they give us this "character-driven" crap about the show?

Writers who have no other way of trying it all together want you to believe they chose the best route...ignoring dangling plotlines... because the show was "just about the characters", but that's natural; they have no other way to explain everything so they didn't try, hoping that enough people would find the emotional closure good enough, and I guess some did.

But many didn't and many won't...that's not because we need stuff explained and can't deal with it only being "abut the characters", but because it's clear that the writers/creators took an easy route, justifying it by re-writing what the show was about at they did.

 

You're missing the point. The finale wasn't awful because it didn't 'answer' everything, it failed because it proved what many of us had suspected for a long time -- that the writers had (literally) lost the plot and jettisoned all the intriguing elements of the show.

We started with hatches, Dharma, Hanso, Widmore, creepy Ben, and all those wonderful character studies, by the end of the series we had action movie plots and Jacob/MIB as the 'big idea'.

I really hoped they would pull off a miracle in the finale, bringing the mystery/majesty back and tying it all together in a way that none of us could have imagined, but it didn't happen, not even close.

As it turns out they didn't even try.

 

I'm just waiting for Steve to pop in and ask "what's this thread about?"

 

The consensus seems far from conclusive. It seems to me to be about 7 or 8 people stating that they didn't like the ending over and over and over and over and over and........

 

And seven others stating that they did like it!

I have to say I really am surprised there are people who liked it.

EDIT: I did like Jack's final moment on the ground with the doggie, which was well done.

 

Exactly. The thing is, no amount of bantering back and forth is going to get anyone to change their minds how they feel about the finale. IMO, the last couple of seasons have been a clusterf@@k so I'm not surprised to be disappointed in the finale. I'm not bitter or angry about it as some people are on other forums. But I still don't think you can completely jettison key plot points and mysteries that have been built up for years-some of the very things that made the show exciting in the first place-and just chalk it up to "but you just don't get it!! It's all about the characters! None of it matters because it was all about redemption!"

 

I think there are at least two types of Lost viewers, those who were intrigued with the characters and those who were intrigued with the mysteries. There are different measures of enthusiasm in each type, and those who were in varying degrees intrigued by both.

The ending satisfied one group, infuriated the other.

More and more I'm in the satisfied camp. I'm glad they did the character route to the end. And I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that I like my imagining of the "facts" behind the mysteries more than i would their versions.

I see both sides, and choose I guess to be "half full." I'm going to miss both the atmosphere and the personalities, I'm going to miss the experience. I'll have fun in August when the book and the Blu-Rays come out.

 

Well said.

 

Can we do without all the 'You're missing the point' comments? Any arguments for the complexity of the show and the importance of individual interpretation are seriously undermined by saying there is only one point, which happens to be yours.

And while we're at it, enough with the 'Did you watch the same show I did?'-type comments please.

 

For a show that was supposed to be "about the characters," (and in previous seasons that might have been true), we sure didn't get much by way of character development in the final season.

It seems ridiculous that the back story on Jacob and his brother Smokey was presented so late in the series. It was as though the writers realized, "Holy ****, we forgot to explain what was up with that Jacob guy!" and threw in an episode at the very last minute. Why wasn't that narrative incorporated into the final two seasons in an interesting manner, via flashbacks, as with the rest of the characters? I understand the major players also had standalone episodes, but this one came off as an afterthought.

What about the lighthouse? It seems like Jack destroying the glass was merely out of convenience, so that the writers didn't have to explain it. That's just one example of a cheap, convenient plot device with no resolution.

I really enjoyed learning the ins and outs of the characters pasts throughout the seasons, but the thriller/mystery aspect of the series felt like a whole lot of jerking around the audience for no reason. But then again most people have very short attention spans, and a show that was mostly character driven without some flashy BAM! POW! SPLAT! aspect to it wouldn't do too well in the ratings.

Overall the series finale was heartwarming, but I don't feel much of a sense of closure or resolution. Sure, the alternate afterlife flash-sideways bits were resolved, but that was a spinoff or a side-plot which had nothing to do with the rest of the show. To end the show with the resolution of a side plot seems silly to me.

 

I think this guy may have moved the
wheel at some point too

 

The island moved from Earth to Caprica when you moved the wheel.

 

No, it WAS lazy writing.

At one point the producers/writers made a choice--the show could be about the mysteries, how the characters were tied into it or it could be about the soap opera and they could leave the threads dangling for numerous plot points.

They chose the soap opera because it's easier to resolve.

The episode with Smokey and Jacob that told us about them was almost contrived and told without any inspiration.

If you construct a pilot as involving and fascinating as the pilot the least that the writers could do is construct something equally as powerful.

The finale was a cheap variation on "Raiders of the Lost Ark: The Last Crusade".

Seriously. Folks are dissatisfied with it because they have every right to be--it provided the emotional closure but was poor storytelling.

 

On pt 2, Vince wrote:

"Watched it again: Now, I'm reminded of when our dog died. We were given his paw print, and a card that described this 'magic place' where you will see you dog again, and he'll be waiting for you. I turned to my wife, saying, "Isn't this the biggest load of crap you ever read?", and she was balling her eyes out!
There IS a whiff of manipulation when you have a tug at the heartstrings, and this is one of those times."

The old Rainbow Bridge story - I read that last year when we got our cat's ashes back. Same exact reaction, through my misty eyes I'm thinking "what a load of..."

And also a good way to sum up the episode. I'm starting to reconcile some of my thoughts about relating, well, the Light to the Light. The Island in the Limboverse was underwater... dead, for all intents and purposes. It took the group joining together to refill the Light of the island, so to speak, which would make them full again. For two of our two main characters, Jack and Locke, it also involved the Limboverse (the Sideways Universe no longer applies) to complete them as a person of the things they couldn't come to terms with during life. Locke finally was OK with being wheelchair-bound and got happiness with Peg Bundy. Jack decided he was not his father and developed a meaningful relationship with a son. Once they made peace with these conflicts, Desmond "nudged" them further, in a rough manner of speaking. Ben found his healing process rewarding enough and decided to stick around.

Not saying I agree with the ending completely yet, as Jack bonding with a son is given up for... meeting back up with Boone and Shannon? But again, we're talking "Rainbow Bridge" moments here.

Mark

 

OK. Here is my shot at answering the questions from the blog posted earlier. In general, I'm avoiding the use of any of the loop theories in explaining things, thought it does open up some more interesting possibilities. I'll expand on some of it if anyone wants more...

* What is the history of the Others? Where did they come from? Why did they kill off the Dharma Initiative?

A: They are some of the many that Jacob brought to the Island. They attempted to mess with the island's electromagnetic energy, much like MIB's people were trying to do in Across The Sea. They were killed to protect the island. Why? Because that is how it was done before. The 'rules'.

* What's up with Walt's powers? How did the Others know about them?

A: Walt was 'special'. Several other people were given this description at various times, including MIB and Locke. All of whom had some special 'connection' with the island. What this specialness is was never defined explicitly. But it wasn't anything specifically to do with Walt.

* How did Cindy the stewardess and the two children from the Oceanic flight come to be among the Others?

A: They were taken. Season 1.

* Why exactly did Jacob pick these particular folks as his candidates? He tells them because they are "flawed." Seriously, this is the best the show's producers can do? By that standard, any random human fits the bill! Six years and all we get is, "they're flawed." Criminy.

A: Some of us are more flawed than others. In particular, all of them seemed to have some serious mommy/daddy issues, much like Jacob.

* Jack is now Jacob's successor and it's his job to protect the magic golden light at the center of the island. But why? What has this light ever done for anyone apart from turn them into smoke monsters. What's so danged good about the island. Everyone on the danged thing has been threatened, beat up and killed, it seems like. Sure, it has healing properties. But, to what purpose? Locke was made able to walk again so he could get killed by an evil entity that wants to destroy the self-same healing island. This makes NO SENSE people. And if the point is that it's not supposed to make sense, that's not coming through clear either. It's all random and tossed together.

A: No. MIB did not kill Locke. Ben killed Locke. The light healed John's legs, cured Rose's cancer, etc. If you don't want it, I'll take it. The light had nothing to do with people being bad. People are people. They come, they destroy, blah blah blah...

* Why was Ben selected the leader of the Others? And why, ostensibly in the name of Jacob, do such horrible things to people? Did Jacob intend this? Why did the Others go along with it? Why did Richard go along with it?

A: Presumably for the same reasons that 'mother' preferred MIB for the role of protector. He could lie, manipulate, etc. A neccesary evil for protecting the island at all costs. Ben never met Jacob. He knew about the cabin though, and we now know that MIB was in the cabin. Perhaps Ben was conned by MIB. Richard was an advisor. He was never meant to lead, or have a direct role in manipulating things. We was Jacob's proxy.

* Why did Jacob exclude Kate from being a candidate because she's a mother? Wasn't Sun a mother also? Wasn't Jin a dad? Aren't Jack and Sawyer also dads? Is Jacob a sexist pig?

A: It wasn't so much that she was a mother, it was that she was attached to something that would compete for attention with the island. Sun was not a candidate. It was never revealed explicitly which one of the Kwons was it. This statement by Jacob indicates that it was Jin. Jin never met the child. Jack was never a father. His 'son' was an afterlife concoction to help him settle his daddy issues. Sawyer had a child, but virtually no contact with it. He was a loner.

* What was Ben's breakfast on the beach with Kate in season 3 all about? We didn't see any of their discussion. [I'm still a bit baffled by this scene. We've not been given any insight into what was discussed. Was Ben merely trying to persuade Jack to operate on Ben's spine? Or was there something more going on.]

A: I thought this was answered to some degree implicitly, but I don't remember it at the moment. I'll have to go back and rewatch.

* Why does the smoke monster kill some people and not others?

A: He can not kill candidates. He also simply can't kill everyone else, because he needs to prove that all people are corrupt, and so he needs to give them a chance to be evaluated. This is part of the 'scanning' that smokie sometimes does.

* Why did the smoke monster kill Eko, in particular? What did the monster see/sense in him?

A: Eko did bad things. However noble the motivation, he refused to accept that it was the wrong thing to do. This is very much like Jacob defending 'mother'. I believe the line about 'you speak to me as if you are my brother' now has quite the double meaning.

* Why did the magic light turn the man in black into a smoke monster? If the light is such a good thing, why did it create an entity that goes around killing essentially innocent people?

A: Warning. Some serious theorizing here. We are assuming that 'a smoke monster' is a bad thing. I believe that 'mother' was a smoke monster who protected the island (destroyed village, uprooted trees), and MIB was next up for the job, not Jacob. She didn't really make Jacob the 'protector' of the island. It was smokey's job, not by any particular ceremony, but because he was 'special'. Unfortunately, smokie wanted to leave, and so Jacob's job was simply to prevent smokey from leaving. The smoke monster was frequently referred to by various phrases, including 'the security system of the island'.

* Why did the Others initially disguise themselves as shipwrecked pirate types complete with fake beards? [What was the point? To make the crash survivors think that the Others were merely fellow castaways, not an organized faction on the island with a secret history? What?]

A: Because pirates are cool. I'm pretty sure that were disguised simply to hide their identites.

* What's up with the sickness that killed off Danielle's team? [Were they killed by Smokey or turned evil by him? Or both?]

A; The closest we got to a description of the 'sickness' was what we were told by Dogen. Danielle's team were killed by smokie, and brought back 'zombified', much like Sayid and Claire. This is the sickness. The same sickness described by Desmond in season 2.

* Is the Dharma Initiative still active at all?

A: Yes. Think about the timelines of Juliet coming to the island. Eloise at the Lamp Post. These occur somewhat before the crash, and then after the Oceanic Six return home.

* Who was behind the air drop of Dharma supplies that has benefited the Oceanic survivors? [There was a drop after the Oceanic survivors arrived, wasn't there? Or was this an old drop that Hurley discovered? I may be misremembering.]

A: Dharma was. Mikhail's computer. This may or may not occur in 'normal time', as things coming to the island may have some time displacement, per Faraday.


* Why do women on the island die instead of giving birth?

A: The writers commented that this would not be explicitly answered, but could be inferred from what was shown in the episodes. This leaves two possiblities. 1. Radiation from the bomb going off caused pregancy trouble. 2. Because Jacob/MIB's mother died. This is how it was always done, and so it is how Jacob or 'mother' "made it that way".

* Why did the Others steal children?

Because children were innocent, and they could try to prevent them from being corrupted. Again, this is like the previous question. It was done because that is how it was done before.

* What's behind the apparent healing properties of the island?

A: Equal parts electromagnetism and belief.

* What's responsible for the visions of animals and dead people the crash surivors sometimes see on the island?

A: The writers have stated that some were actual 'ghosts' trapped on the island, some were visions by the island, some were MIB taking on an appearance. MIB was not always in human form, for example, see the spiders in Nicky and Paulo's episode. Smokey sound.


* What's the deal with Libby, killed in season 2, who evidently gave Desmond the sailboat that landed him on the island and who once was in a mental ward with Hurley? [Despite Libby's recent appearance this season, these questions were not answered.]

A: Ok. I'm drawing a blank on this one But a rewatch or two might fix that...

* What's up with the giant statue? Who built it? What is its significance?

A: The writers said that they were going to address this during season 6. Clearly, it wasn't aired. This may be a deleted scene? More interesting: Why does it have 4 toes?

* Is there any explanation for why the man in the Dharma Initiative videos is at different times identified as Dr. Marvin Candle, Dr. Mark Wickmund, Dr. Pierre Change and other names and why the CIA agent who identifies himself as Joe Inman to Sayid tells Desmond that his name is Kelvin Inman?

A: Could be for privacy/deception. My preferred answer is one of the various loop theories. But I'm not going there right now...

* Why did the psychic in Australia encourage Claire to take the doomed flight?

A: So that Claire would not give up the baby for adoption.

* Who is the man Sarah left Jack for? Why is she so reluctant to reveal his identity? Is he somehow associated with the Dharma Initiative and/or the Others?

A: It doesn't matter who, and it was because Jack could be a bit controlling and pscyho. Jack always had trouble letting go.

* What's up with that polar bear in Tunisia? Was Charlotte part of Dharma when she found it, or was she snooping into what Dharma is all about? [Pretty much answered, I guess. We know Charlotte was investigating her Dharma past? The polar bear likely transported from the island ala Ben and Locke.]

A: The polar bears got there via the frozen donkey wheel. Charlotte also stated that she was on the island before.

* Who is Penelope's mother?

A: This wasn't answered, but I don't think it matters much. Ask a more interesting question, like 'who was Locke's brother?', as stated during the mouse trap discussion. Particularly interesting, when taken in context of MIB/Jacob...

* Why did Alpert want the body of Amy's husband? [Was it merely as proof of retribution to the Others? Or did they do something creepy with it?]

A: MIB can only go in/out of a person's form so long as it is not buried/burned. This was why they wanted the body. To prevent MIB from using it to deceive their people.

* Who created the ancient temple on the island?

A: This was not answered. At best, it was the same people who built the statue. The light cave also had similar carvings. Was that the same people? When was it built is probably more important than who built it.

* How did the Others save young Ben after he was shot? [They put him in the dark pool, most likely. But we weren't shown that this is the case.]

A: We didn't need to be shown. It was inferred by the Sayid scene. Yes, it was the pool.

* What is Ilana's history with Jacob? Why was her face bandaged?

A: This was not answered. I think it would be interesting as story filler, but not critical to the overall story.

* Is Locke really dead? Will he return?

A: Yes. As has been said on the show many times, dead is dead.

* Why did Desmond tell Charlie he saw a vision of Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter that could only come true if he died?

A: All but one of Desmond's visions failed to come true, because Desmond (or others) interupted the expected sequence of events. Charlie did die, but only because Charlie interupted the course of things and essentially forced his own death. In short, Island-Desmond was constantly 'almost right'.

Why did Claire abandon Aaron?

A: She got 'the sickness'.

What caused the bad luck surrounding Hurley?

A: Attributed to the numbers, but some people just have bad luck.

What does Juliet's mark mean?

A: This was obvious. More importantly, the note said that the 'rules don't apply to her'. What does this mean, and does it have any relation to 'the rules'?

 

Everyone should really take the time to read Jeff "Doc" Jensen's two part write-up of the finale over at EW.com

He is one of the highest regarded commentators on the show and has some great thoughts on the finale.

Part One covers the Island action:
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20387946,00.html

Part Two covers the Sideways world:
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20388269,00.html

 

Well, I know Terry O'Quinn has said that initially, he was only hired on to be in the series for one year. He was surprised that his role eventually turned out to be as important as it was. I'm convinced that, at least in the first season, the writers and producers had no clue that Locke would ultimately be one of the pivotal characters -- and in a way, the main villain -- of the series.

And don't forget that in the first script, Dr. Jack was killed... a decision that was nixed by the network. So I'm thoroughly convinced they were making it up as they went along. I also believe they had major plans for Mr. Eko and Walt, but gave up on those when (for various reasons) the actors left the show.

Speaking as a colorist (and one who did a dozen episodes of this show): they really screwed up certain shots in the final Island sequences, where part of the time, the scenery was gray and muddy, as if the Island was "dying," but then suddenly it was all green again. Very, very inconsistent.

Exactly. Well said. Or, to put it another way [in Dr. Evil's voice] "throw me a friggin' bone here!"

 

If it's all about the characters, then why was the character of Widmore never resolved? Or Desmond? Or Penny? Or Walt? Or Richard? Or so many others? (Not to mention "The Others.") There are dozens of character-related issues that just never panned out -- in terms of: why were they on the Island? What was their fate? What were their secrets? Did they achieve redemption? And let's not even get into one of my Top 10 Unanswered Questions: "Why were the plane-crash kids kidnapped, and were they killed by Jacob's people or by Locke/MIB?"

For that matter, if the Sideways World was a kind of pergatory, why were so many of the people unhappy in it? Jack was depressed, Locke is still in a wheelchair (and gets hit by a car), Ben has an empty life, and on and on.

Sure, there's redemption and a reward for the people that finally make it to the church. But not anybody else. Seems a bit of a cheat to me if you're going for the purely philosophical, spiritual explanation.

I should collect all the negative reviews and start posting links. Here's one from Peopme magazine. And some reasonable explanations in USA Today. (My explanation on why Hurley remained fat is because actor Jorge Garcia has an uncontrollable eating problem.)

 

Purgatory is not heaven. People aren't supposed to be happy there. The characters solved their problems at the end and became happy. That's consistent, in some vague, abstract way, with what purgatory is supposed to be. It 'purges' your faults, which did seem to happen to them.

I'm just pointing that out although I've agreed with most of your comments so far. But here's a question that nonetheless supports you. If they're in purgatory, how they heck could Jack father a son who didn't exist in the real world? There's reproduction in purgatory? If he (forgot his name) didn't exist, what the heck was he?

 

Who knows if it's purgatory? That's just an assumption based on religion. Some faiths have it that purgatory is just a big room filled with smoke and a bunch of people milling around.

All this is guesswork without any facts, scripts, or hard evidence. It's all hoo-hah.

Me personally, I want to sit Damon Lindeloff and Carlton Cuse tied in chairs, and then have Jack Bauer from 24 go at them with a blowtorch and a soldering iron until we get the answers, dammit!

 

Are you talking about religion or the show?

 

They were taken by the others to the Temple to be protected from MIB. Children are innocent and are easily corruptible. The "Rules" of the conflict allowed for children to be protected, but adults could not because they have free will. The children were seen early this season with the stewardess Cindy at the Temple, and then followed MIB into the jungle. Where any of the Temple stragglers went is a mystery.

Some of this is conjecture but fit well within context of the show. I'd be interested to hear if you disagree and why specifically.

Mark

 

I'm starting to think that, like the 'adam & eve' skeletons, they made sure that NO ONE on the 'internets' was right about ANYTHING!
Of course, the only way to do that is to be arbitrary..... right?

 

, and his wife, Arriana Huffington!

 

All the time they were on that island and they never noticed the temple before...

Strange!!!!!!