LPs from a digital source that kill their CD counterparts?!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by ArneW, Mar 13, 2002.

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  1. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Umm...if you are making a digital copy, you won't be going through any D/A convertors.

    Also, if you have a good digital chain, and your original is 16/44, your copy will be identical to the original.

    When you send a copy of a Word file to a friend via e-mail, do you worry that something might be different when you send it? "Oh, this is a copy, it might not be correct. Come to my house to see the original."
     
  2. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    I was talking about a copy from an analog master. You know what, I was just throwing out some abstract ways of looking at something and I feel like this is a picking bones session...

    Digital clones can go wrong. Work can be lost. It's happened to me and other people I know with some jobs in the past. Always protect the original. Luke, I've read posts from you in the past saying that on the remix CD of 'Tommy' you can hear digital ticks. Are the ticks also on the digital master that was made for the remix or did it happen in cd production? At this point, we don't know where or when the ticks came into the picture. What if the ticks happened when a clone of the digital master was made and sent off to the pressing plant. What if several back-ups were made with this defective cloning process and the original was lost or wiped because there are tons of back-up clones (all 0's & 1's being equal) and so what? It's just creating endless work (some poor slob sitting at a PC removing every little tick?). I wonder what DCC stores their digital masters on? If they need a new production run of CD's, do they just go into the warehouse, rip open the "Gold Disc" of the needed album, pop it into a Fedex envelope and it's cloned? Didn't MFSL make a little mistake leaving their digital masters at JVC because they thought their digital safety's were "all thing's equal" and now there's a bigger demand for the JVC made UD-1's (not only because of eq curves...)? I say always protect the original master in whatever form it exists because a copy is a copy...

    Also, using "umm..." can be read as being rude. Look I know I'm over-reacting but lately it's getting a little aggressive here. I'll take five and be positive later...

    Todd

    P.S. If I scanned a copy of a document and sent it via e-mail to a friend, it could become corrupt or he may want to verify authenticity with the original. Also, why not I destroy the original document since it's been preserved as a digital medium (a few years ago a lot of master tapes have met the same fate)?
     
  3. trhunnicutt

    trhunnicutt Member

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Grant,

    I have to agree with Todd. Your statement...

    ... doesn't hold up. What's a "good digital chain"? Depending upon choice of cable (COAX, Toslink, AES/EBU, Internal computer board) or digital clock, the amount of jitter can change the resulting copy. There is no such thing as THE digital chain, thus copies made with different good digital chains (differing high end cabling, drive mechanisms, accurate clocks, etc.) will sound differently, thus not matching the digital master exactly.

    Remember back to the early days of PCM, when we had Perfect Sound Forever, and Bits are Bits? IMHO both of these have been proven to be false by the audio enthusiast community at large.

    I think Todd articulated his point about every format as a step removed from the original master very well, and I agree with his comments about how and why things can "change" when dealing with digital copies.

    TRH

    BTW: Todd, hang in there. Whatever life is throwing your way, it will pass. I admire your courage to engage in this forum while going through tough times. Best wishes...
     
  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Jitter is only introduced in A/D and D/A conversions. It has nothing to do with digital copies.

    Take a file on a computer. Make a copy of it. Is that copy not in every way identical to the original?
     
  5. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Well, the whole point of this thread (see the title) is stuff that comes from digital masters.

    We've got a pretty good idea. They were already on the (digital) tape Bob Ludwig was given for mastering. Bob told me as much. They were (apparently) *not* on the mixdown tape Andy Macpherson did. So, somewhere between the mix and mastering, somebody (Jon Astley) did some "playing around" with introduced those clicks.

    It wasn't a production related issue.

    Besides, I've never said that digital copies *have* to be perfect. Just that they *can* be perfect.
     
  6. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Thanks Trhunnicutt for your kind words. Everything's been pretty tough right now but I'm doing my best to move through it. Friends, work, family and also participating on this board have been helping...

    All the best,
    Todd
     
  7. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Luke,

    My mistake for confusing the topic in format of master...

    Thanks for the info (and your field work) about the digital ticks on 'Tommy'. I guess too many chefs can ruin the soup...

    Also, sorry I was was a bit touchy...

    Todd
     
  8. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    In this case just one!
     
  9. trhunnicutt

    trhunnicutt Member

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Point taken on the jitter comment. I was trying to express that diffrerent items used in the copying process, even digital to digital, can influence the final output, thus rendering the digital copy different, and not necessarily worse, than the original digital master.

    I'm not so sure of the file on a computer analogy. The problem is that file has to be transferred or copied in some fashion from the hard drive to another medium to be released to the public as consumable software. When dealing with audio files, I feel that process introduces variables that can influence the resulting copy, just as it can with analog material and masters.

    For example, some cd ripping software and cd-rom drive mechanisms have "exact copy" features, or some dat tapes have different performance characteristics, as well as cables used in the copying chain have different impedance measurments.

    Tom H
     
  10. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    Another early digital recording is Earl Thomas Conley's "Treadin' Water" album from 1984 on RCA PCD1-5175 (CD) or RCA AHL1-5175 (for the LP which of course all LPs are analog)
     
  11. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Bradley, you just HAD to resurrect this thread from the dead, didn't you, DIDN'T YOU?:D
     
  12. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    Yes, it is sometimes worth resurrecting old threads from the dead.
     
  13. John

    John Senior Member

    Location:
    Northeast
    Hi Tom- You said the engineer on Love Over Gold. Did you mean to say Brothers in Arms? Cause Love Over Gold is quite a bit better than BIA, which really is a disaster. Also didnt know you feel so strong about the improvement Simply did with BIA, may have to get that on the next
    order.

    JR
     
  14. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    Another "LP better than CD":

    Robbie Robertson
     
  15. Joe Koz

    Joe Koz Prodigal Bone Brotherâ„¢ In Memoriam

    Location:
    Chicagoland
     
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