M97xE pulling a little too far left?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DarkAudit, Feb 20, 2014.

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  1. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I have a Shure M97xE installed in a Technics SL-D2. According to the Technics arc protractor and other protractors I have on hand, alignment is just about dead on. But the soundstage is definitely a little bit left of center, especially at the very beginning of a record. I can't say for sure if it pulls itself back to center as it plays, or if that's all in my head.

    What I do know for sure, is that an AT95e, preinstalled and aligned for my LP120 (and double checked against the SL-D2) does not pull to the left. What should be centered is properly centered.

    So what I need to know, is what can I check to see where my problem is? I know now that it's somewhere between the stylus tip and the back pins of that headshell.
     
  2. Blank Slate

    Blank Slate Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    I experience similar issues with my M97xE. The soundstage is left of center. Depending on the recording it takes a 1-1.5 decibel adjustment to center it. I have checked the alignment of the cartridge and the alignment of the cantilever. Both appear to be correct. I will be interested to hear any suggestions.

    At this point I have just accepted the need to make the adjustment and live with it.
     
  3. 56GoldTop

    56GoldTop Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nowhere, Ok
    I believe prior to the last incarnation of the V15 and prior to the M97xE, Shure came out with the M111(H)E (a p-mount, but with the stabilizer/static brush) and according to literature, hyped it a bit. I bought one. After pulling my hair out over this very issue, not wanting to use my MM or risk sending to much juice into the coils, I had a friend measure the cart. The channel balance was significantly "off". I tossed the cart in the bin.
     
  4. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'm going to verify with a multimeter when I get home from work, but it does tend to waver from centered to just slightly left of center, sometimes depending on if I'm thinking about it. :)

    One other thing to consider is the space...
    [​IMG]
    Since the picture was taken, I moved the speakers out a bit, so now the crates fit inboard of the speakers. To the left is the rest of that room, a dining area. So essentially the setup is tucked into one small corner of a large room.
     
  5. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    Can you return it for a replacement? I would call Shure customer service.

    I don't have any issues with mine.
     
  6. 56GoldTop

    56GoldTop Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nowhere, Ok
    Gentle Giant. Nice. :)
     
  7. Ben Adams

    Ben Adams Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    My M97xE cart is about .7 to 1.0 dB quieter on the left channel. Can't tell when just playing an LP, and when I do needledrops, I just compensate with software while mastering.
     
  8. jfine

    jfine Forum Resident

    As I understand it, the Channel Balance spec for an M97xE & Type IV is "within 2db". To me that means it could be as much as 2db louder in one channel. My Type IV and M97 both seem to be ~1.5 louder in the right channel. Azimuth adjustment will never fix that much off.

    The Type V15VxMR is "within 1.5 db". Mine seems to be ~1db louder in the right channel.

    My Grado Gold 1 is also ~1db off.

    I read that you have to spend $$$ (or get lucky) to get truly balanced cartridge, or just do what I do and use the balance knob.

    If you're not using headphones or your speakers are not evenly spaced/symmetrically laid out, windows on one side, etc., you may never notice it.
     
  9. Ben Adams

    Ben Adams Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Exactly. I remember pbthal talking about finally giving up on this when he does his rips. It is what it is.

    I still balance mine, though. :D
     
  10. vlds8

    vlds8 Forum Resident

    For what it's worth, I had my m97XE die on me last month. Left channel vanished. I measured open circuit across the left coil and 1380 ohms across the right. Sent it to Shure, they replaced it under warranty. New one reads 1380 across the left and 1400 across the right. I am sure it is within spec, and I doubt that can cause whole dB of difference in output, but mechanical tolerance of the cantilever/cartridge assembly might. Haven't mounted it yet. The old one, while it worked, was pretty much balanced (by ear, not exact measurement).
     
  11. felix.scerri

    felix.scerri Forum Resident

    G'day all, a couple of things. Firstly the not so good things. Shure appear to have allowed the channel separation specifications and balance to slip to, 'adequate' but this may be a consequence of the natter of the coil contruction which I'd closely examined on a dead M97xE (one of my own, 'accidentally destroyed').

    Poor build quality is a known issue. Dry solder joints on the output pins are a known problem leading to 'dead' (open circuit channels). I have actually observed this on a friends M97xE which I repaired by careful resoldering, and yes it survived! Having said that though, apart from off centre cantilever styli (another common issue, but Shure aren't the only one with that issue, by the way), all my own M97xE's have been essentially trouble free. Regards, Felix.
     
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  12. jfine

    jfine Forum Resident

    Felix, can you elaborate what you found out about the coil construction?
     
  13. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    Please put a towel or something over your TV screen. It gives off nasty reflections that are going to through off your soundstage. The left side of your room is open, vs a full wall on the right side. That will also skew your soundstage.

    Also, try putting something under your speakers to get them off the floor. Even just an inch will help. Right now your speakers are fully coupled to your hardwood floor; pretty tough to get clear, tight defined bass.
     
    Blank Slate likes this.
  14. felix.scerri

    felix.scerri Forum Resident

    G'day all, well the dead M97xE coil assembly I examined showed heavy 'potting' of the coil assembly with 'machine wound' coils with presumably equal number of turns of very thin wire on each former, although this number cannot be certain.

    The measured ohmic resistance was very similar on each coil. The Shure M97xE uses only a single magnet in the stylus assembly and given the very close proximity of the coil assemblies to each other and sharing a common soft iron core, I would not expect more than 'adequate' stereo separation figures due to unwanted coupling between the cores of the common magnetic circuit. It works well enough though. Regards, Felix.
     
  15. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Multimeter test shows nearly dead even on both channels. Tested at the cartridge pins and at the rear headshell pins. So at this point, it's either my head or the asymmetrical space. :p
     
  16. jfine

    jfine Forum Resident

    Just asking cuz I don't know, but is this the actual way to test the Channel Balance spec? Seems possible this db drift may change when in actual operating conditions, or a multimeter test may not expose a small db difference?
     
  17. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Did a couple things when I got home from work. first I reoriented the speakers to point at my preferred spot on the couch instead of at the far wall. Then I took some scrap pieces of interlocking mat material to elevate the speakers about a 1/2" off the floor.

    At this point, the centering issues seem to be gone, although every once in a while I think I hear it just a touch left. Likely just all in my head now. Next stop, the Jico stylus. :)
     
    Ben Adams likes this.
  18. Ben Adams

    Ben Adams Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    You are going to love that Jico SAS. :D
     
  19. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Bump. It wasn't all in my head. Going by the Technics Baerwald arc protractor wasn't really the right way to go. Even after switching to the Jico, it sounded a little too much to the left. Some tracks sounded a little weak on the right side, like vocals on Sgt. Pepper and A Day in the Life, and the panning at the end of side 2 of Brain Salad Surgery.

    So after a little Google time, I decided to start over and do it per the manual. Center the cartridge in the headshell and use the overhang gauge. Much better. Everything sounds more centered, and the right channel is coming through stronger than before.
     
    drivingfrog likes this.
  20. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Another bump. I don't think it was ever the cartridge at all. The turntable during all this was my SL-D2. Serviced or not, it's still a 35 year old turntable.

    On Sunday morning, after a couple days idle, the first record of the morning nearly ruptured my right eardrum. 90% of the sound from the right channel and much louder than normal. Checked alignment and headshell wires, removing stylus assembly while doing so. It was fine for about a minute before drifting to the right and greatly increasing in volume. Tried the AT95E. Fine. I try replacing both left channel headshell wires. No joy.

    Another forum suggested swapping out the Jico for the stock stylus. I do. It's fine. I put the Jico back. Now it's fine again.

    For about four days. In the middle of an album today, everything shifts right again. I repeat the removal and reseating of the cartridge, trying the stock stylus, double checking wires. Nothing working this time.

    So this time I decide to test the Shure in the other turntable, my LP120. All good. So before I put the headshell assembly back in the Technics, I hit the tonearm connector with some canned air. Put everything back and put on Who's Next. All seems well. Except maybe the synth part towards the end of Bargain. Sounds a little weak.
     
  21. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Bumping the bump with more information. When the channel issues were going on, there was a noticeable hum from the speakers when I touched the cartridge mounting bolts (don't remember if it happened when I touched the tonearm itself). Now that it has somehow self-corrected, there is no hum when I touch the bolts or tonearm.

    I'm guessing that it is really an intermittent tonearm issue. I'd rather that if it were going to fail, just FAIL and be done with it. It's not enjoyable listening to a record when all I'm doing is waiting for the next glitch.
     
  22. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Bumpity bump. It's either cart, headshell, or stylus that's glitching. Now I get the same "everything to the right" problem with the LP120. I disconnected the headshell and cleaned contacts (rubbed on my jeans like you do to clean an eraser), removed stylus assembly, gave the cart a couple flicks with my finger, reseated stylus, and put it all back. Everything is recentered again.
     
  23. Budysr

    Budysr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pensacola, FL.
    Did you say you have had this same problem with 2 different TTs? If so, I'd be looking at the preamp, amp, and speaker and wires. Sounds like a preamp or amp issue to me. Or the connectors
     
  24. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Considering this problem never cropped up prior to the arrival of the M97xE, I would doubt it was any of that. Especially when I corrected it by fiddling with the headshell and cart without touching anything else.
     
  25. DarkAudit

    DarkAudit Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Annnnnd it turns out the original cart was an all-around dud. Just installed the new one. Even before I put the first record on I knew something was different. Just cleaning the stylus with the system on showed this one packed a bigger punch than the old. Had to turn the volume way down to get the same level of sound. Mids were much more prominent and cleaner than before. It'll take a few albums to regain my trust, but for now, I'm happy.
     
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