Magnepan owner mulling over Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II or 1Ci

My used MG12 speakers I purchased used years ago for $550 are probably the best money I ever spent in this hobby. I am still enjoying them today, but as age 50 looms on the horizon I am concerned that if I don't start trying some new things I may never get around to experiencing other speakers.

Believe it or not, I have never even heard a pair of Vandersteen speakers - and I likely won't be hearing any new models as the nearest two dealers (according to Vandersteen's site) are in WI and IN (I am in Kansas City). However, I know that much like Magnepan they seem to have a cult following. So, why not try them?

My room is about 12' x 17'. My Magnepans are being driven by a McCormack DNA-0.5 power amp and a Quicksilver Line Preamplifier. I listen to a lot of rock from the 70's and 80's as well as classic jazz from the 40's-60's. I listen at reasonable to low levels and never really "rock out" too hard. Prior to the addition of the Quicksilver line stage, I used a McCormack TLC-1 passive line stage. With the Quicksilver, I usually have the volume control around 8 o'clock - maybe 9 o'clock if I want it "loud".

I am guessing the 2Ce would probably have a similar output to the MG12s in my room. I am a little concerned that the 1Ci might be too sensitive for my current system. However, I am also considering the purchase of an Ultravalve amp from Van Alstine (35wpc). If I go with that amp, the 1Ci might be a good choice given its higher sensitivity. I've read some other threads that talk a lot about AudioConnection in NJ using the 1Ci with tube amps from Quicksilver with outstanding results.

So, given my room, system and musical tastes...what do you think about these two models from Vandersteen? I'd be curious to hear from those who have owned both brands and how you feel they compare sound-wise to one another.

What I am looking to gather...

1. How do Vandersteen speakers sound compared to my Magnepans?
2. If using an Ultravalve amp, are the 2Ce SIIs sensitive enough to work well in my room?
3. Would the 2Ce SIIs even work well given my room size?

 

You are absolutely audiophile crazy. I have heard the 12's in a friends store and they are excellent. If you're happy why change? But I'm guessing that you are just like the rest of us on this site so here goes. My comparing the speakers sounds helpful but is really a fool's errand. What I will tell you is that both Vandersteens are excellent and both sound glorious with tube amps but neither will they disappoint with quality solid state. If you listen at reasonable levels I suggest a 2ci sig II plus an Ultravalve or comparable will knock you out as will the same speaker played louder with an Audio Research Vsi 60 or comparable amp or integrated. The 1ci is also excellent for smaller rooms or near field listening. Like Magnepans, Vandersteens are high quality, great sounding, and reasonably priced American classics. You can spend a lot more and not do better.

 

Contact Acoustic Sounds in Salina, KS

 

I think it's best to listen to as many different systems/components as possible so you get an idea of differences. I've never heard Vandersteens so I cannot comment on those. My recommendation would be to definitely go listen to them.

If you really like them, do one last thing with your Maggies to make sure you truly like the Vandersteens better. Spend some time on optimizing the placement and toe-in on your Magnepans. They are extremely tweaky when it comes to these two properties. Maggies can go from sounding good to absolutely unbelievably amazing with just a fraction of a degree change in toe-in! So, make sure you have the Maggies at least 3 feet out from the back wall and at least 2 from the side walls. Make sure to measure their position to ensure they are equal distance from your listening spot. Then toe them in so they are pointed to be angled just slightly behind your ears in the listening spot. If the listening spot can be at least a foot or more away from the back wall, it will be ideal. You are now in the general area of sounding great. But you still have to experiment with minute toe-in angle differences to hone in to the point where they sound absolutely amazing. If you don't do this, you will never know the true capabilities of your Maggies. You'll know once you have achieved this level of placement and toe-in when the sound reaches a nearly holographic level.

 

I don't think Acoustic Sounds actually carries much gear in their store. More like a big online sales outfit according to stuff I've read.

 

The 2ce would work with the 35 wpc from the Ultravalve in a room your size. The question is do you have a room where you can actually set them up? What shape is the room? Could you pull them 1/3 of the way into the room and still have them in a position where they have walls to their side that they could at least be a couple of feet away from? Vandersteen are nice speakers but the problem they have is that they are very demanding when it comes to set up. Lots of people will tell you that they have them in less than ideal potions and that they work fine but I'm sure you could set a pair of Harbeth on a TV console up against the wall and they'd work fine but why would you? It's one thing if you find a pair used for a great price. It's another thing to buy a pair new for 2500 bucks and not be able to really get the most out of them in my opinion.

If you can however set them up as intended I think they'll smoke your old Maggie's. If you can't and you have your Maggie's in a more ideal setup you will at best struggle to get similar performance with the 2ce.

Oh and personally I think they sound best with tube gear. Back in the day, like way back in the 80s Vandersteen always demoed them with either Audio Research gear or a solid state amp and preamp from a company called PSE that made some nice tuby sounding gear in the late 70s through the 90s. I really liked how the 2ci and original 2ce sounded with the ARC Classic 30, a 30wpc tube hybrid.

Anyways great speakers, a little on the polite side but great, just really, really fussy about setup.

 

I haven't auditioned the 2Ce SII's but have listened to other time aligned dynamic speakers. Because they are time aligned, their overall presentation should be seamless and integrated. I expect you will notice more weight in the bass range, rock kick drum should be felt as much as heard. I've read these need about 38 inches in back of the speakers. This is to allow enough space for the rear firing woofers to do their thing. So, I think your longer room dimension should work with these speakers. Your amp should a perfect compliment for the 2Ce's. A tube amp on the other hand, would not provide enough slam (below 35 Hz) these speakers are capable of. You'd never get to experience the floor shaking Low C of the organ, nor sympathetic vibrations of bass percussion instruments, not a good match IMO. Just a guess, the Maggies may have that slight extra +1 in neutrality and transient attack, but overall less efficient. Even so, a dipole does introduce room effect from the reflected backwave... a more "recessed" sound. A dynamic speaker tends to be more open, the tendency of lead instruments stand out, especially lead vocals. If you want to hear canons, the Maggies ain't doin' it!

 

I owned Maggie 1.6QRs for a few years. I bought the 2CE Sig II not long after it came out. I don't miss the Maggies.

 

I've owned both the MG12s and Vandersteen 1Cs and will say they have very different presentations. From my experience, the Maggies had a very clear crisp sound, The bass impressed me with it's clarity, but not it's depth. My problem with them was their lack of soundstage depth. Left to right soundstage was very good, but it was at the plane of the speakers only. I tried to work this out but had no success.
The 1Cs presentation was basically the opposite. They had a very deep 3D soundstage. I found them more natural than the Maggies.

If you can't find a dealer to loan you a pair, my suggestion is to find a used pair of 1Cs (I paid less than $300 for mine) and compare. I'm a firm believer in keeping a couple speakers with different flavors to keep things interesting.

 

The 2ce couldn't do the low C of an organ with Threshold monoblocks. They run out of steam around the mid to low 30s, especially set up right, well away from walls and they by nature of they're design don't have a weighty, dynamic bass. Time aligned, phase correct speaker designs tend toward clarity and detail instead of weight and dynamics and slam. The first order crossovers attempt to control the extremes of the drivers movements to help preserve correct phase. The 2ce is an inefficient speaker but a relatively benign and stable load. The Ultravalve will be able to drive them though I probably go with Quicksilver monos if I already had their preamp. They are well known as a great match with Vandersteen.

 

Maggies and Vandersteens are both good speakers. I have a friend with MMGs and 1Cis under the same roof. Very different presentations. I have yet another friend that went from MMGs to 0.7s, a nice upgrade at least in his system. If you like the Maggie sound you may want to compare the 'Steen 2Cs to the 0.7s to see what you prefer. Just a thought.

 

Funny how the SPL goes up but they never get loud.

I had a hard time finding a speaker that kept what I loved and added something. I love Maggies and Vandys. Always have. I can't afford the tube amp to drive either though. If you feel like looking elsewhere, you might entertain the idea of a Erol Ricketts (NSMT) speaker. He works with all the design philosophies I've come to love, and uses very high quality drivers. My experience puts his sound between Maggies and Vandys, with a dedication to phase coherency, simple crossovers, and box design to control the drivers. He's not a big name in the industry though, and he catches some heat for his homespun marketing.

 

Interesting choice for an alternative speaker; Vandersteens (at least the earlier designs) are often described as having a presentation not unlike a panel speaker when properly set up. And, like a Magnepan, a fair amount of that is required to get them working properly. However, Vandersteens (at least the 1's and 2's?) are much friendlier amp loads than Magnepans, and agnostic whether tubed or solid-state. I haven't owned Vandies, but believe that they're similar to Maggies in that they must be listened to in the 'sweet spot' to sound right. I was shocked when I owned a pair of SMGb's in the '90s; amazing sound and stereo image, but moving to the side, even slightly -- or standing up -- and it was as if invisible gnomes threw a wool blanket over the speakers. After that experience, I decided that speakers with a more generous dispersion pattern are more my thing (I almost never listen in the 'sweet spot'.)

However, after hearing 1Ci's demoed with Ayre electronics about ten years ago (lush, fast, gorgeous tone!), I've had a wish to someday have a system built around some smaller Vandersteens (I'd love to hear the VLR's, as I live in a rather small space.) But I'm worried that off-axis, 'ambient' listening might be less than satisfactory.

What say you about that last concern, Vandersteen people?

 

If I buy new, I can get the Ultravalve and 1Ci for around $2.950. A new set of 2Ce Sig IIs will cost about $2,700.

I am kind of leaning towards the 1Ci at this point. I also have a pair of JM Reynaud Arpeggione speakers which are small, sensitive floor standers. The Ultravalve would allow me to use those as well in my system as a change of pace (they didn't work that well with the Quicksilver and McCormack combo).

I like the transparent panel sound of the Maggies...just looking for a speaker that uses cones that can give me some of that same magic, but yet with a different presentation.

My mind could change in the next 5 mins...LOL.

 

That's what I was looking for. Listened to a bunch of speakers. Always wanted to hear the Dunlavy D'Appolito as those and the Vandy 1s appear to be the only speakers I've seen measured that showed a time aligned, good phase impulse.

I ended up with a MTM, phase coherent, stand mount. Lapinski seems to have picked up the Dunlavy idea. L-707A being another I could not audition.

 

It's a 12' x 17' rectangle with the Maggie's panels about 3 feet from the rear wall and the outside edge of each speaker 2 feet from the adjacent side wall. My seated listening spot is about 10 feet away from the front of the panels (so the chair is fairly close to the rear wall.)

 

Go all in on the 2's (used if you can find them), get a set of bi wire cables. Your room dimensions are fine. They should sound fine with the equipment that you have. Your best bang for the buck will be the time that you spend adjusting them. If you have money left over, treat yourself for making a wise decision

M~

 

Here's a photo I took awhile back with the JMR Arpeggiones in the room to give you a visual idea of my space looking towards the speakers:

 

!!! Those are fantastic speakers. Tell me you still have them!

 

Thanks...they are quite nice. I do still have them. They are sitting dormant in another room right now. They worked well when my TLC-1 was feeding the DNA-0.5, but there is too much gain with the new Quicksilver line stage. If I buy a tube amp, I will certainly give them another whirl!

I even swapped tubes in the Quicksilver from 12AT7s to 5965s to reduce the gain.

 

That sounds like like you have the space for the Vandys. They actually have a pretty wide sweet spot once you dial in positioning and tilt back and the 1c sounds fantastic with tubes. Every now and then I think of going back to more sensible amplification and have actually thought about pairing a set of 1ci with the new Quicksilver integrated.

That's a nice set up. That room should work great with either the 1s or the 2s

 

My room is 17 x 13.5 and I don't think it's big enough for 2CE's. They need a lot of space.

Oddly enough I'm thinking about putting a pair of .7's in there (for home theater).

 

Some speakers need a minimum space between the two to work their best.

 

From a size perspective, the 2Ce is not much bigger than the 1Ci:

39.75" -> 36"
16" -> 12"
10.25" -> 10"

They are larger in width as opposed to height - in fact, about the same width as my MG12s which are 17". My Arpeggiones are slightly deeper than both the 2Ce and 1Ci, but not nearly as wide.

 

Right now I have a pair of Proac Tablette 10's on 26" Skylan stands in that room. They are nine feet apart and the image is freaking HUGE. Add a JL Audio subwoofer and that could be perfect.

Big rooms need big speakers. Smaller rooms do better with smaller speakers.