Make my concerns dissappear...or support them! Choosing a new turntable *

So this weekend I will be purchasing my TT. Not so much a deadline as it is a "time to poop or get off the pot". My intention is to get a turntable that I can then build my future system around.

My current equipment =

TT = AT-Lp120 (modded and whatnot)
Amp = Yamaha A-S501
Phono Pre = Cambridge CP2
Speakers = Elac B6 Debut

*Next upgrade after TT will probably be the Lounge phono pre, but more concerned at moment with TT as this is the source and my philosophy will always put source first.

*Also, I only listen to Vinyl at the moment with this system.

I have narrowed my purchase down to 3 tables. I am less concerned with cost on each and more concerned with..

-Sound = I like sound on the brighter side. Not shrill by any means, just tilted to that side of the spectrum. Detail and separation are great too.
-Design = I don't want something with a ridiculous footprint. I like a nice thick platter. I am not big on vinyl wrap for the plinth but not a deal breaker.
-Setup = I don't want something that I need a microscope to set the VTA, know what I mean? I understand there will be some fiddling and such, but I don't want to go crazy every time I swap a cart.
-Setup part 2 - I do want the flexibility to set VTA/VTF, Azimuth,etc....
-Upgradability - This is not as important to me. Nice to have but not terribly important.

I listen to Rock (all), Jazz, Soul, and some classical.

So here are the finalists:

- VPI Prime Scout - My biggest issue with this is....is it too much turntable for me? I have a tough time thinking I will spend more than $250 on a cart. Maybe $300. I could see myself going with an Ortofon 2m Blue or maybe an Orange but not sure I have the diet for that. An AT 440Mlb is what I have become accustomed too, not sure if that fits with this table (any experience?). That said, you cant find a better reviewed TT and my one audition of it passed with flying colors in the store. Not thrilled about design however, but could get over it.

-Clear Audio Concept (Birch plinth version) - I like the design mainly. The tone arm reports scare me a bit on these as footfalls and the arms ability to track properly has come into question. Also, apparently it is a bear to set VTA. Also, I have heard the sound is not terribly dynamic or maybe it is not as lively? Any owners defend these assessments? or maybe you agree?

-Music Hall 7.3 - I dislike the appearance, but again, it is bearable. I do like the Decoupled motor. The room I am in may suffer from some vibration issues as it is a raised floor. So footfalls are an issue. I have an ice stand to put every thing on but it only does so much. This table is supposed to dampen vibration pretty well, yes? I have also read that it sounds fairly musical, which is a plus in my book.

Thoughts? Any input from owners? Your help and expertise is appreciated.

 

Is your heart set on belt drive, and are you only interested in new?

Good philosophy, but any one of those TT's and a Lounge will have you speaker shopping in a heart beat IMHO - the ELACs are good for what they are, but they are a bookshelf with no real low end.... you didn't mention if you have a sub or not. Just a potential mismatch IMHO that will have you jonesing for more sound perhaps. But you may already know that, and if you disagree, I respect that too. Then again, I have 80lbs main speakers with 150RMS driven by a 250W RMS Parasound Halo A21 in my main HT, so some would think that is not ideal ofr audiophile sound either! But it sure is fun when I want to crank it up!! (believe it or not, the Halo, RP-280F is admirable at low volume also - the A21 delivers 11W of Class A sound, which is good for that).

I would say what's your hurry, it is a big purchase, keep pooping until you find what you want. Plus, if you find the right seller you don't have to pay the new premium - and for these newer belt drives the new premium is VERY high - then that might help you get to the next quality level. Personally I think the prices new for some of the "audiophile" belt drives is a little excessive for they are but YMMV.

Good sellers are out there as you know, every TT I own was bought used, and I am tickled pink with all of them - well all used except a Technics SL-J2 I bought new in the late 80's but that has been stored for a while. I took my time with all, and waited for the right one, which is tough for me because I am not the most patient soul.

IMHO, just resist the urge to get a "deal" and save $100 buying from someone who claims to know nothing about it, does not know how to test it, sold "as-is" - that CAN BE a disaster waiting to happen. Now, if that situation is local, and you can test it out, spend an hour or two with it, then that can be overcome also... but many times shipping is the only option (all my TT's but one were shipped) but in that case buy from someone who KNOWS what the deal is with the table, will vouch for what works and might have a problem and will GUARANTEE it. Again, knowing that you are meticulous and analyze things to death like me, you probably are already in sync with all this.

Ebay is OK as you have Buyer Protection, Craigslist because you may be able to check it out, HiFiDo because they guarantee, pack better than anyone and are awesome ---- other sources like Yahoo auctions, US Audio Mart, and Craigslist where you can't check it out and have little protection and no guaranteed return are too much like gambling. Again, stating the obvious, but maybe a future reader might glean something of value.

Just offering my own perspective, excuse me if it has a know-it-all overtone.

 

If you plan on upgrading the speakers, and phonostage and cartridge you've listed go for the VPI table. If not then spread that money around. Id rather have the P3 with an Ortofon Bronze or Exact and a good phono pre then just the better table.

 

Of the ones you've mentioned I'd go with the VPI. I think it is a better table than the others, one of which, the Music Hall, really isn't all that huge a step up from your AT. On the other hand I'd suggest you look at the new Technics which is a proven design that will last you the rest of your life and do something the other tables won't, play exactly on speed. That makes a huge difference for piano and for vocals. It doesn't have the cachet of the VPI but it is a great table. At least give it a listen.

 

Thanks guys. Some of what you address in your posts definitely has crossed my mind over this process. I have been buying audio gear for various systems (mostly home theater) that I have setup over the past 35 years, some high endish, some not so much. The vinyl portion of the chain has me perplexed as I just don't have a depth of experience or knowledge. It is very much a different beast...an enjoyable one at that!

I tried to keep everything small and cost effective, hence the Elac's, which I bought for $200 on a deal. The Yamaha was a slightly used amp I got for about $200 below norm. The phono pre was on sale. The LP120 was a gift from my loving wife.

I do have a sub (nothing special it's a Polk), but don't use it and a lot of that is because of space.

I forgot to say in initial thread that I have a used or demo deal setup for each of the above except the VPI. If I can buy used on stuff like this I usually do. It was one of the reasons they all made my list.

On one hand I feel like the Music Hall is my best bet due to the cart I would use and the price point. Yet, the VPI is something I can build around for a while and upgrade. aaahhhh!

Clear Audio Concept, which I have played with the most as far as auditioning goes has me confused. I cant quite place whether the sleek/refined appearance is masking a table that may not be all that great (is it a lifestyle table like a Shinola?) or is it really on par with the other two mentioned...maybe it is in between?

FYI, My old gear would go to a setup in a different room so that wont just get thrown out or traded in.


I think in the end, I just need to buy one and try it out in my room and see how it sounds. I will probably go with music Direct or someone that has a good return policy.

VinylAddict, I will also look at HiFiDo as I have heard good things recently but never bought from them. Thank you for the tip!

 

Bubbamike,

I have had quite a few suggestions along the lines of the Technics. This is something I looked into and I will just be honest...it's an aesthetics thing. I don't want something that looks like DJ turntable this time around. I juts wanted to try something different from what I have. Also, wanted to try the belt drive route.

 

It's your choice, no need to explain. But remember that it became a DJ turntable because it was so good and durable. It didn't start out as one.

 

I agree - I'd throw that cash at the speakers - I'd like to hear the modded AT table - unless it is seriously broken I'm not sure a turntable upgrade with little elac speakers is going to make a huge difference. I wouldn't do anything lower than a bronze/om30 on the ortofon - my OM30 is one of my favorite carts which tops my 440mla.

 

If you don't want to fiddle, I would not get any of those, personally. I would look at a refurb'd 1200, the new 1200GR, or something that you can get a Jelco 750 arm installed on (e.g. Polytable). Much easier to change cartridges that way, easier to deal with overall. This is the direction I'm heading when I can upgrade my turntable.

I also agree that a huge upgrade on the turntable and phono stage will have you thinking about a speaker upgrade.

 

TBH, the LP120 is a toy compared to the real thing. Sort of like those knockoff Louis Vitton bags made of pleather or whatever. That's not an insult to your current table, but the build quality and performance of the real thing is so much better, it's not even funny. And don't buy the "DJ Table" thing. A 1200, new or old, can be whatever you want depending on how you set it up. You might be surprised to know that before the 1200 came along some nightclubs and discos used belt drive decks like Thorens, and yet, people don't go around calling those "DJ Tables".

See below.

 

Don't the wood models come with the Satisfy arm? The footfall problems are associated with the base model that uses the Verify arm and it's inverse magnetic suspension bearing. The Satisfy arm is great, and has been used on many of their higher end tables for years, typically in the somewhat more exotic arm tube materials, but it's a very good basic design (I have the carbon fibrer one on my Avantgarde). It is also used on the Marantz TT-15S1 with the lower cost aluminum arm tube, and is available as $400 option on the base Concept. VTA on the Satisfy is set by loosening the two set screws in the arm base and moving tonearm up or down, but there is no dial or calibration marks so you would need to measure if trying to duplicate settings. The azimuth is via screw at end of arm tube on the bottom that locks the headshell. Anti-skate is magnetic, and is set by the thumbscrew on the side.

There are quite a few other nice tables in that $1500-$2000 range now, it's a pretty good time to be shopping for a table. I just saw a dealer in California selling the new Oracle Origine for $1500 with 2M Blue on Audiogon, not sure if it's a special promotion or what, but that's a good price for a pretty unique table (which means not to everyone's taste ).

 

Clear Audio Concept. It's been around a long time. Refined design. Classic build quality. Time proven. In the $1,500 range it's the top dog IMHO.

 

I don't think it's such a great idea to build a system around a turntable. One little variation of that TT can throw off everything else in the system. And, if you like bright sound, I would look to the cartridge you install on it.

 

I would not judge the Concept harshly until I listened to it without the standard MM cart. I was not pleased with the sound I got out of their MM cart.
As to footfall problems with the Verify arm, I added an isolation platform and... gone.

It really is a sweet little table once you upgrade the cartridge and get it properly isolated.

 

The CA- Concept Wood is at the top right now. That could change tomorrow. I have had 6 favorite turntables in this black hole of turntable buying.

I would like to find a reasonably priced MM cart to use with the CA- Concept. My understanding of MC carts is you really need something pricey to get a good sound. Pricey for me being over $300.....for a cart.

Patient_OT - I know the LP120 and the 1200 are not even close in quality....just cant get by the look. Just want something different.

 

The one thing I will say about the Concept is that it is extremely neutral and with the Star MIMC extremely detailed.

If a Pressing is a gem, you will know why. If it's a dud, you will hear that in equal detail.

Having said that, the owner of a well known online audio retailer was staying here this Summer and he kept commenting on how ridiculous it was to hear the sound coming out of my setup.
It may be kizmet with everything else I pair it with. Who knows?
But, I am a fan of the Concept and I know he left with a new respect for what it can do when properly set up with that Soundsmith on it.

Really, we are spoiled for choices at almost every pricepoint these days.

 

Or how you load that cartridge - I would either get a phono pre that allows the most adjustments you can get for the money or make loading plugs. If putting together a system, I would start with the speakers.

 

Whatever deck you decide to get, get a nice cartridge to go with it.
The cartridge is what will really determine the brightness or warmth.
Look around the thousand dollar range, this will really allow the table to sing.
Also don’t discount the Music Hall. This can be a really nice table with the right cartridge.
I own both the VPI and a 7.1, with the VPI as my main deck.
No history with a Clearaudio.

 

The new 1200s look great, so you have a couple of direct drive options.

You might consider a Sota Comet IV. It's going to have a Rega arm, which means you will have some opinions about what cartridges might be a good match. It's a refined edition of a very reliable table, and it will give you a taste of what a well-isolated massive platter deck might offer in that it really has two platters with a damping layer sandwiched between. I'd seriously consider a speed control if I went that direction, though.

Seems like you are in a good position to take on a new table, and I think many of the options mentioned are going to make the best of your amplification.

 

^I agree with this. The cartridge will have a huge impact on the end sound.

There's many options in the $1500 range, especially if you're willing to buy used. Take as much time as you need.

The Elac B6s are good speakers and from my experience with the AT-LP120, I have little doubt that it's the weak link in your current chain.

Based on your sound preferences, I think the Clearaudio table with an Ortofon cart would likely fit the bill. I would seek the version with the mechanical bearing tonearm.

 

Me, I'd stick with what I've got and take the money I would spend on another turntable and spend it on more records.

 

Chester - sent you a PM...

 

Out of those 3 I would lean toward the VPI. I personally would pass on the Music Hall. Upper level Clearaudio tables are intriguing, but I never thought the lower end stuff looked too impressive. In your price range (and assuming you want belt drive and currently manufactured model) I would focus on the VPI and the Well Tempered Amadeus. Maybe the Rega Planar 6. Out of these the VPI will have the best build quality, the Well Tempered the best sound quality (IMO).

 

what is your budget for vibration control and the pre-pre??

 

I took a spin over to my local shop to have them spin a few records for me and take me on a tour of a few more tables.....they really push the Clear Audio Concept and the Rega Planar 6 of what they have.

They are very passive on the Pro-Ject tables. They said they are okay but nothing to write home about....the one they spoke of were the classic , 2xpression , a few others .

When I asked this specific sales person about Music Hall they defined it as a Pro-Ject for people that don’t want to futz with stuff...set it and forget it.

They were also pushing MC carts and their benefits.....made it sound like a $750 Ortofon Black was in line with a $400 middle of road MC Cart where sound quality was concerned. Of course this is only as long as my Phono pre is up to the task.

The one that bothered me was everything was hooked up to about $4000 with of gear on each table of this ilk.....which does not match what I have at all.

The Concept was very neutral in sound. The Rega was very lively , quite musical. I liked it but have heard so many off things about Rega....speed issues etc....