Marquee Moon is truly timeless

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Halfwit, Jul 12, 2015.

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  1. dead of night

    dead of night Senior Member

    Location:
    Northern Va, usa
    I love your analyses too RRB. It seems Verlaine is playing 7 note scales, most notable the natural minor on minor key tunes and the major scale on songs in the major key, is that correct?

    It also seems he uses a lot of sequences that move from chord to chord, to my ear.
     
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  2. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Thanks for saying so. The question regarding the natural minor is a good one and I am not sure. I need to listen again. Verlaine does play the major scale on some of the songs in major keys. He also plays some modal stuff. Marquee Moon's solos are all D Mixolydian IIRC.
    You are correct- he does use a lot of chord sequences and plays fragments and embellishments from chord to chord. The cadence in Venus is a perfect example.
     
  3. quakerparrot67

    quakerparrot67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    tucson, az.

    all working very much in the romantic tradition as far as lyrics go, so i can see it (especially tom and patti. i hadn't thougth about bruce till you mentioned it, but it makes sense.).

    cheers,
    rob
     
  4. sixelsix

    sixelsix Forum Resident

    Location:
    memphis, tn, usa
    Listening last night (with friends, in my favorite local bar) I detected a lot of sixths also, particularly in Friction. Can't wait to see analysis of the rhythm/textural stuff as well as the leads.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015
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  5. giantleech

    giantleech Lord of all fevers and plagues

    Verlaine's voice grates on me from the moment he first opens his mouth. The ultra-pretentious lyrics he sings with his irritating voice are annoying as well. Great music though, for sure.
     
  6. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Worked on this today and will post it tomorrow. I will post the other songs over the next week.
     
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  7. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    Exactly as I feel about this classic! I had the rare privilege of seeing Television a couple of weeks ago in Los Angeles. Although I've been a fan since late 1977, the band broke up before the early teenage me could catch them, and I never saw them as a band until 2003 (with Richard Lloyd). I have however been seeing Verlaine off and on since a surprise New Year's Eve show at CBGB in 1980.

    So how did this band now aged 65 to 67 years old sound? AWESOME!!!! Their timelessness was proven once again as they made their way through all of "Marquee Moon" (though not in order) along with "Little Johnny Jewel" and 1880 or so from the 1992 S/T release. I don't recall any tunes from "Adventure", I guess Verlaine's not keen on them these days. I was so thrilled to be seeing them again, at 52 I'm far from the 17 year old kid who asked Verlaine to play "See No Evil" and "Breaking in My Heart" backstage at that 1980 CBGB show. Despite the years the music was as fresh and exceptional as ever, forget the genre names, I thought during the show that Television really are straddling the line between rock and jazz, Billy Ficca's drumming alone proves that. Of particular note was that Verlaine seemed to be enjoying himself immensely, smiling throughout the night, something I'd never seen before at a solo or Television gig. I'll also add that Jimmy Rip does an exceptional job at filling Richard Lloyd's place in the band. It's clear when you see he and Verlaine play together that they are not just band mates but great friends, something Lloyd and Verlaine sadly were not.
     
  8. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    The Rhino reissue mastered by Kevin Grey is a good purchase, but if you can track down an early Elektra pressing it's got that "something extra" that the contemporary mastering and pressing lack. Not a knock against the Rhino, it's just different to someone who has been listening tho this record since 1977. I've read negatives about the Four Men with Beards pressing but haven't heard it myself, I think it's from a digital master unlike the Rhino which began with the analog tapes. However the FMWB pressing of the 1992 S/T release "Television" is quite good and definitely better than the CD. I have never heard an original vinyl pressing of that one, they're hard to come by and expensive since it's release came during vinyl's darkest days.
     
  9. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    My reaction, the first time I heard The Strokes was "Man, they really sound like something from Television's first album!" :laugh: :agree:
     
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  10. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Venus from Marquee Moon by Television

    One of my favorite songs of all time....my favorite song from the album. A brilliant mixture of pop, rock, R and B, and classical music. The guitar parts will focus on Richard Lloyd's parts which are the ones that are played in a higher register and are slightly higher in the mix.

    The intro is ultra simple...just an F and G Chord played by Tom. Richard plays the opening theme in C major...the song's key...but stays close to chordal tones in the theme. In other words, he plays notes that are in the chords mostly when those chords are being played. Also important in the intro is the register of the notes in Richard's theme. Richard stays in this and the upper registers thru the entire song which gives it continuity and it's brilliant chiming color and perfect use of the guitars sonorities. The F-G pattern is repeated from :00-:13. At :13, the songs incredible cadence enters and it is not unlike a blues turnaround. The cadence is F-C-G and back to C. The arpeggios that Richard plays are mostly Major chords and a Seventh on the third chord. This Seventh chord gives the pattern a feeling of suspension and drama in our ear. He plays upper voiced inversions and his picking is like a trip hammer...ultra precise. Fred and Billy change up and follow Richard in unison with the flowing eight notes.....a smart songwriting move that helps give the song a sense of forward movement. Another smart songwriting moves happens at the start of the verse. Tom Verlaine comes in "early" with a "pickup" on the third chord of G7. This really adds to the dramatic effect when the verse proper starts on the C Chord in the cadence. It is subtle touches such as that which really give the song its character.

    The verse chords are almost straight out of Rhythm and Blues....C-F-G. If you added in an A Minor chord it would be exactly like a "doo wop" chord progression. However, Tom's singing and what Richard Lloyd plays give the song its unique sound and make it sound very different from R and B. The vocal melody is somewhat static and has little contour. Anything else would IMO make the song sound over busy due to what the guitars play. Richard plays a cool sounding octave based lick over the C Chord with a trademark triplet. Richard uses triplets often in his licks. At :25 Richard plays Suspended 2nd F and then a G suspended 2nd chord and they sound amazing. His decision to use these substitute chords is what separates a brilliant player from a so-so player and elevates the song. Tom plays some amazing arpeggios also along with Richard in the verse and the guitars weave in and out like a patchwork. The bass and drums play an unusual rhythmic pattern that is unexpected. A pre-chorus starts at :37. This somber sounding section is based on A minor to D Minor. Richard plays a pattern with a triplet at the tail. His pattern follows the chord changes. At :52 Richard plays an almost orchestral sounding cadence over the turnaround chord of G . The chorus enters at :54 as is based on A Minor -E minor and then E minor- F-G at :58. Richard repeats the pattern he played at the turnaround G chord. Richard plays the main theme heard in the introduction over the F-G pattern in the chorus...a brilliant use of the material that opened the song. The intro cadence re-enters at 1:09 and turns the song around. Another amazing use of the song's sections and music material.

    The verses re-enter at 1:16 and all of the sections above repeat until at 2:12 where a break (bridge) enters. The section is very similar to the pre-chorus section and is based on A Minor-E Minor -D Minor and sounds very somber. Tom starts his guitar solo with a series of volume swelled notes based around A minor. They almost sound like a synth at times. At 2:20 he plays some nice bends and then the remainder of his solo is very "vertical"...and follows the chord changes with notes that are played almost strictly from the chords. For instance at 2:32 Tom plays a nice series of picked notes from an E minor inversion. The bridge then turns around at 2:37 with the F-G pattern. Tom plays some stabbing double stops over the turnaround to end his solo.

    The verse, Pre chorus and chorus then repeat again until at 3:29 when the songs intro cadence section returns for the final time but this time at 3:39 the G 7th chord is held for an additional bar signaling the end of the song. Richard plays an ascending run in C Major that reaches the upper most registers of his instrument..he literally can go no higher and neither can the song which then ends on a C Major Chord bringing this incredible song to its conclusion.
     
  11. PearlJamNoCode

    PearlJamNoCode Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia
  12. chodad

    chodad Hodad

    Location:
    USA
    I played this song the other day and it reminded me of Television.

     
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  13. profholt82

    profholt82 Resident Blowhard

    Location:
    West Michigan
    I feel the same way. I discovered it when I was 15 or so, and I was into punk. But now, years later in my 30s, I'm still listening to 'Marquee Moon' regularly while I almost never revisit any punk from that era. The record transcends genre and time.

     
  14. sixelsix

    sixelsix Forum Resident

    Location:
    memphis, tn, usa
    Yay! Thank you.

    I could be merely projecting here, so bear with me, but something about this particular song feels a little poignant to me, without beating its chest and yelling “hey, this is heavy.” Clearly the lyrics imply some kind of whatever-(pot?acid?) induced surrealistic night out, ostensibly with Richie, AKA Mr. Hell. (Somehow I doubt it’s Richard Lloyd at this point, but who knows.) Assuming it is, it’s almost like in that last verse, Tom is laying out the divergence between himself and RH, with Hell being the devil-may-care rabble rouser, and Tom the more cerebral guy with reservations about letting go completely. In that light, the song’s almost like a tribute to their partnership, even though the reasons it had to end are implicit. (Aside from RH’s bass playing and whatnot.) And the musical backdrop RRB decribes in great details almost works as an elegy to what went before. Pretty incredible stuff.
     
  15. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    I like this take on the meaning of the song. It's one of my favorites of all time, just so romantic. All I'll add is that it was written during Hell's tenure in the band, so the Richie being referred to as "the friend from many stages" has to be him.
     
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  16. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Interesting points from both of you.

    I was never sure who he meant by Richie but I think you two have it right. I also have never fully understood the Venus De Milo imagery. Since Venus has no arms, the image of falling into her arms can mean a lot of things. In the end, he gets up and walks out of her arms.
     
  17. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    Probably just wanting something/someone he can't quite have for one reason or another. Just out of reach or flat out not real. He used a lot of hallucinatory and hyper real imagery back then. He and Hell did come to New York to be poets you know!
     
  18. quakerparrot67

    quakerparrot67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    tucson, az.

    i just read a review in 'the big take over' music zine that made the same poit. now i gotta give them a listen.

    cheers,
    rob
     
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  19. quakerparrot67

    quakerparrot67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    tucson, az.

    a lot of the same thoughts that i've had while listeng to 'venus' and reading about the band's history. the lyrics and the overall feel of the song remind me also of many clear cold late nights out with friends in my younger years, chemically enhanced or not, and puts me in a very nostalgic, bittersweet mood...


    cheers,
    rob
     
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  20. quakerparrot67

    quakerparrot67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    tucson, az.

    i do get the feeling that 'richie' is his old friend meyers/hell. the 'stirring up trouble by impersonating cops' bit sounds like it fits with his 'persona'.

    cheers,
    rob
     
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  21. Logan S

    Logan S Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I have to disagree with the guys recommending the remaster. The original Elektra is cheap and is far more dynamic. You won't get LJJ, but a better version of that is on the Blow Up live album anyways, which is a must if you end up liking MM. I'd recommend the Danceteria disc for that record.
     
  22. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I think you're 100% on the money. "Richie" is definitely Richard Hell (the song was written before Tom even knew Richard Lloyd IINM). The "let's dress up like cops" conversation has a ring of truth to it given the famous story about Richard and Tom running away from school and starting a fire in a field. As for what Tom is saying about their partnership, I agree that the song is about Tom growing up or moving on from Richard's more uncontrolled impulses. The whole point of falling "into the arms of Venus de Milo" is that it's a straight plunge with no-one to catch you or stop you or protect you. When Tom stands up and walks out of Venus's arms at the song's end, he's actually leaving that heedlessness behind. A beautiful paradox: he walks out of the protective embrace of being utterly unprotected.

    There was a rehearsal video on Youtube some years back of Tom teaching the song to Richard Hell. It was quite a touching video given what the song's about, although as I recall Tom was getting a little impatient with Richard's limited musical abilities. The video was eventually taken down and I haven't seen it since...
     
  23. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    I was thinking the same thing regarding the imagery of the arms of Venus....but you said it a lot more eloquently than I could. :)
     
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  24. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

  25. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

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