Marvelettes Ultimate Collection question and Steve "mini-rant"

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by quentincollins, Jun 13, 2003.

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  1. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    This speaks volumes about both Men....

    Bob:D
     
  2. sgraham

    sgraham New Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    I never liked Motown's plan of trying to cut the record so hot the needle would almost jump out of the groove. Some of those old singles sound pretty good and some sound pretty bad. I've preferred the sound of the U.K. (EMI) Tamla/Motown 45s that I've heard. "Superstition" is (a bit late for this discussion, but nevertheless) pure dynamite on the U.K. 45. Never heard anything to touch it.
     
  3. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    The domestic "Superstition" single has no highs to speak of.
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    The "classic" Motown 45's were cut at Columbia, NY. Barry Gordy liked to cut there, and always wanted the same guy to do it (for good luck). Look on an old Motown single. The numbers in the lead out groove will have that small, orderly Columbia style machined look instead of being hand written. This same style of numbering will be found on all Columbia/Epic albums and 45's of the day. Also a bunch of Warner Bros. stuff as well and A&M and many others.

    Barry Gordy always gave the same order to Columbia mastering: "Make two refs for me, one with EQ and one without. As hot as possible". I'm sure he chose the EQ'd ref every time!:sigh:
     
  5. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Glad to hear that about Stevie--very bogus not to have something reasonable out there, even if I'm not optimistic about the sound quality.

    I'll have to check out the Hip-O box, if I can get one used. Very curious to hear how it would line up with ULTIMATE.

    ED:cool:
     
  6. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    It turns out that indeed most of the 60s Motown 45s I grew up with were Pressed by Columbia.
     
  7. Casino

    Casino Senior Member

    Location:
    BossTown
    Don't own that box (have several of the individual ones such as Smokey, Temps, etc.), the 2-CD Supremes Anthology, and some of the "Ultimate" collections. So the Hitsville box would be duplication for me, John, but from what I've heard said, yes - the Hitsville set is supposed to be pretty good.
     
  8. MrPeabody

    MrPeabody New Member

    Location:
    Mass.
    Bob Ohlsson, one of the original mastering guys at Motown Detroit states in "The Mastering Engineer's Handbook" that much of the cutting was done at RCA:

    "If at all possible, he [Berry Gordy] wanted the mixes to be able to be mastered flat. So in many cases, if it didn't work well flat, it got sent back to mixing rather than attempting to fix it in mastering.... Anything beyond a couple of dB at 4,000 cycles was sent back for another mix."
     
  9. CT Dave

    CT Dave Senior Member

    Location:
    Connecticut
    The Four Tops box on Hip-O is by far the best sounding Four Tops set out there. Surprisingly, it was mastered by Kevin Reeves, who has been taking some knocks around here lately. I tend to think that Reeves is an engineer who just does what he's told by the project producer. I have a few he worked on at Capitol/EMI with Ron Furmanek in the "Collector's Series" and "Legendary Masters" series, and they are ear bleedingly bright. The Gene McDaniels,Timi Yuro,and Rasperries CDs he mastered will practically peel the paint off the walls.
     
  10. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    You should get the Hitsville boxes because there are many uncommon or rare tracks on it, at least in mono singles form. The second box deals with 1972-1992, but contains essential hit singles.
     
  11. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    I agree. I have some CDs where he has done some outstanding work. I don't hear excessive brightness in his work, but I do hear a tendecy towards leaner bass. It could be the product of the equipment he used.
     
  12. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    However, I recall reading where Gordy liked RCA because they gave him the fastest turnaround.

    Hey, you think the RCA pressed 45s were more prevailent on the east coast, and the Columbia pressings on the west, like with Elektra Records?
     
  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Grant,

    Slight confusion here. I am not talking about pressing, I am talking about disc mastering. Doesn't matter to me where they were pressed but where they were cut.

    Typical letter from my 20 year old memory when I saw it, MOTOWN to COLUMBIA (I even remembered the guys name!!!!):


    Feburary 1, 1965
    Mr. Tom Van Guessel
    Columbia Records

    Dear Mr. Van Gussel,

    Would you please send a 10 inch reference acetate on the following selection. STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE/THE SUPREMES. One flat version and one version with equalization. Please rush, rush, rush!

    Thank you,

    Robert L. Gordy
    Quality Control/Motown Records
     
  14. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Didn't Motown ever cut in-house in the 60's, at least for some things? I remember reading something about singles being cut with a Grampian.
     
  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I'm sure they did, but when it mattered to Barry Gordy, he went to Columbia.
     
  16. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Thanks Steve. Columbia sure got a lot of mastering business years ago from other record companies. Pressing too. Sometimes both!
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    They were the biggest and the best at one time (1960's-'70's).
     
  18. sgraham

    sgraham New Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    Steve,

    I'm puzzled. Most of the Motown singles I've seen around here have oddball runout grooves and other signs that they were not cut at Columbia.
    ?
     
  19. Angel

    Angel New Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, Ca.
    Multiple cuttings and pressings make it very hard to figure out the Motown Single story. Steve once told me that there were something like 20 mono mixes for some of the Motown hits and that various cuttings were of more than one of these mixes at one time; each with very subtle variations in echo and tone/instruments. :eek:
     
  20. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Hmmmm, what's this mini-rant bidness??? Perhaps I'm the master ranter here/hear..... I'm kinda glad I'm not a Motown fiend because of the problems this thread shows:

    Do you want a cd that sounds like the 45? (and which particular pressing is the hit - Motown tinkered constantly)...

    Do you want exactly what's on the master tape only?

    Do you want Steve's version (which would hopefully be like the second option only tweeked just so ala tube playback and black magic)?

    Problem is you can't have it hi-fi and sound like the 45, BUT hi-fi isn't what Motown was after - hmmmmm, what DO you Motown fans REALLY want??? Is it accuracy you want (which would mean mighty compressed sound) OR is it Steve's magic (which wouldn't necessarily be accurate)...
     
  21. Casino

    Casino Senior Member

    Location:
    BossTown
    Well, the Tempts box is 5 discs, Smokey's is 4, the Supremes is 2 (and I have a disc of unreleased Motown stuff as well as a bunch of LP's). I'll check it out, but doubt the Hitsville will give me enough of what I don't have to make it worthwhile. Thanks.
     
  22. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    I see. With vinyl, I always put the mastering and pressing together, for some reason.
     
  23. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    So, i'm wondering, did Gordy ever let more than one mono mix hit the market? I think it probably happened quite a bit and caused a lot of differences in how we all heard the same songs so differently.
     
  24. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Well, I AM a Motown fiend, and I want BOTH! But, if I *had* to choose, I will go for that 45 RPM mono sound every time. Impact over audiophile.
     
  25. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Rant/rave man again... This is tough because on the one hand the hi-fi approach would please some (AND leave open the option of doing tonal changes on your own via eq), but not really sound like the 45's - the other way (making the cd sound like the 45's) cannot be undone to make a pleasing hi-fi experience for the hi-fi lovers amongst us. This leaves us a no-win situation for one group or the other. The Stones did say you can't always get what you want... ;)
     
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