May I show-off my new website, for those who know (and know of) me? Audio Note at The Audio Home..

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Warren Jarrett, Oct 28, 2017.

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  1. triple

    triple Senior Member

    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Hi Richard,

    While Peter Qvortrup may have had lots of lobster in his day, it is unlikely that lobster is served at tea time in the AN factory on a daily basis. Perhaps you catch my drift, perhaps not.

    Even if Peter Qvortrup has a sizeable stash of Mullard EL84's, it is unlikely that they will start appearing in the $5k AN amps.

    I quoted Kevin Deal because I always quote someone older, wiser, with less hair and more magnitude, even though my experience is the same as theirs. You may have a soft spot for PQ and (for whatever reason) hate Kevin Deal, but that's your own thing. I, OTOH have personal experience with both NOS (from the Soviet era) and current production Sovteks and can confirm that Kevin Deal knows what he is talking about. As if he needed me to confirm that.

    Peter Qvortrup despises Alps volume pots? When Noble stopped making their pots, PQ created his own (cheap) volume pots. That is fine. Kevin Deal does not manufacture volume pots, so he uses Alps. There is no mistery there. The fact is that all three are cheap volume pots.

    Lets go back to the regular program, shall we?
     
  2. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Congratulations Rolltide! It is so interesting to read your impressions, as your system has so many similarities to mine (our sources are almost identical). I was drooling when Warren posted that Black Friday offer, and I'm so happy it went to a great home.

    Like triple, I expect that careful tube rolling will eventually result in improved performance. The results you got from your brief experiment may be because the particular tubes you used were not the best choice, or maybe they were not fully burned in. This can make a tremendous difference. In any case, if it sounds good, it IS good, and I have no doubt that the Oto has been voiced carefully with the stock tubes. I look forward to reading more about your experience. One particular area of interest is that you have that beautiful Leben phono stage, and now you have a built-in phono stage in the Oto. Curious if you have compared them yet.
     
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  3. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I've been around the block a few times with tubes, believe it or not. I've bought my weight in tubes from Kevin Deal. The decision to put all the Sovteks back in after a few hours didn't come lightly. I can see myself trying the Tungsram EL84s again, but it was important I go all the way back to the baseline first. It sounded much, much better with the stock tubes (I did leave the Amperex in the phono stage).

    I'm not nearly as kind to new production tubes as Richard is - I tend to hate them and want them out quickly. The Chinese tubes that came with my Line Magnetic were ghastly. I don't even like the cost-more-then-NOS Gold Lion 12AX7s. But when it comes to this particular amp, it was clearly voiced around the most common and readily available 12AX7 in the world, and is simply not a "better tubes = better sound" equation. I think the biggest factor might be the lower gain of the Sovtek 12AX7WA. A 5751 might be a better fit.
     
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  4. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    First no issue with Kevin Deal or Prima Luna - I quite liked the PL amp with Tannoy speakers at California Audio Show 7 in Oakland in July. I can only go with what I hear - Soundhounds carries/carried Prima Luna - and they carry LM and Audio Note but for the same money - I feel the AN OTO sounds better than the PL or LM amps for the same money (even with the advantage of cheap Chinese labour.

    So I kind of go with the guy that produces the better result for similar cash. Of course I am not belaboring the point of tubes. I mean you can always buy tubes that people recommend try them out and see for yourself. But please understand that if I like an amp from company A a LOT more than company B I will be more apt to take the advice of the maker of A over B.

    I read a lot of things about volume pots and all sorts of other parts - like - an autoformer is better than a resister type - and that's fine but then I listen to the preamp with the autoformer and I listen to the supposedly inferior resister type and the latter sounds better - I scratch my head. Another person will say Passive sounds better than Active - then I listen to some Actives and think WTF are they smoking.

    In many such comparisons I ask myself - well maybe the resistor type was just very well made with well made parts or the autoformer wasn't. As a consumer level decision I go with the end result. I have heard a ton of DIYers claim their stuff is better than a production unit and the latter for cheaper sounded better more often than the DIYer spending MORE money on parts wound up sounding - sometimes design and engineering trump someone who spent twice as much on a part.

    There are vast numbers of opinions and looking at tube reviews in most cases one guy will say XYZ is great and someone else will call it an overrated pile of crap. Pretty extreme difference of opinion - and then you note that both guys have different amps and different speakers and different sources. Ahh.
     
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  5. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    That's really the question of the hour. I'll do some more rigorous comparison in coming weeks, but my initial thoughts are that it is very close, close enough that if I decided I wanted a cleaner setup with one less box I could easily live with it. Its the sort of situation where if I'd already had the Oto Phono SE I wouldn't have sought out the Leben, but since I already have it I'll see how it goes.
     
  6. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Yes the LM tubes I dumped as well and ditto for the KingKo KA 101 where I have spent half the price of the amp in upgraded tubes - the rectifier tube made for me the most dramatic difference. I'm certainly not saying you can't improve the stock tubes but I also believe in leaving the stiock tube in for a solid month before fiddling - figure out the sound of the stock amplifier first. Then fiddle. Everyone says you need to bed in new NOS tubes well that is also true of the stock tubes.
     
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  7. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Exactly what crossed my mind as well. Let us know if you try it!
     
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  8. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    With two phono stages you can set-up and A/B two turntables - oops now you have to go buy another table :) this hobby gets crazy fast.
     
  9. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    Do you think there could be an impedance miss match between the Leben and Oto? What are your thoughts so far on the differences in sound between your previous set up and the Other?

    If you're looking for a decent quad of NOS EL84s try some Phillips Black Plates. They're ridiculously good for the money. Brent Jesse had some last I looked for about half what a pair of Mullards cost and, I think, just as good.
     
  10. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I don't believe there is an impedance mismatch, but I've thought back to when you reminded me that the Leben uses a much lower gain then your typical MM phono stage, which is why I preferred my SUT on the setting that one would expect to be too much gain in more standard situations. The Oto's phono stage seems to use a more standard gain, so I'm back to the 1:20 setting for my Koetsu Rosewood, and I believe it has a tad more bite to it that I prefer.

    To go further into the differences between my previous set up and the Oto Phono SE - the Oto is an iron fist in a velvet glove. Like I said previously, the sense of power and control over the speakers vs. more powerful on paper amps really stands out. But at the same time it does all the things I've grown accustomed to from the sort of gigantic McIntosh amps I like in my living room, it also invokes all of the "Art Dudley terms" - color, tone, texture, romance - that one would expect from a tube amp. I think it is this combination of factors that elevates the Oto over other amps/integrateds I've owned.
     
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  11. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    The B&W Matrix 800 speakers are set-up in Room 1, with Audio Note Ginrei amps (45 W x 2) for the mids/highs, and ARC 4-channel amp (150 W x 4) for the 4 12" woofers. No sound yet, because the active crossover is not set yet. But it is excitingly close.

    I also have a big tube amp (MFA 130 W x 2) staged there, in case the solid state ARC just doesn't blend well with the Audio Note SET amps.
     
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  12. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    That sounds exciting Warren. I would love to hear it set up with such great gear.

    I still remember Lewis Lipnock’s review in Stereophile. It was the first time ever that a reviewer had stated that a product under review had no flaws! I didn’t believe him, but I thought that they must have been pretty special. If I remember correctly, he jammed them into his basement or living room and they looked a tad too large for the room.

    Have fun going through the process : )
     
  13. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    a few years back I visited a friend of mine, and noted in his living room he had some mass-market JBL speakers. Then I noticed pushed into a corner of his bedroom he had B&W Matrix 805's, that his dogs would gnaw on periodically. I rescued them (the speakers, not the dogs), and they were my daily drivers for a couple of years. I think while B&W steadily improved the drivers of the 800 series, I've heard some people suggest the cabinet designs (and its 'matrix' of internal bracing) in the Matrix series was the apex of design in that area.
     
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  14. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    I had the Matrix 804's for a number of years. A nice speaker for sure. When I moved to my Harbeths, I gave a friend of mine (who is really just starting out building his first 2-channel system) a great deal on them. He intends to build his first real system around them.
     
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  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    100Room2forJGB.jpg Warren asked me to post these snaps. Room1_2018.jpg Room1_2018_centerview.jpg AudioHomeSystems.jpg
     
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  16. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Thank you, Steve.
     
  17. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    "If I had a hammer" ...
     
  18. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Hammer: Crucial to the soundstage.
     
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  19. Kenneth73

    Kenneth73 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denmark
    Hi warren.

    Be careful with running SET into af midrange and tweeter driver. Unless the section has a load the SET can see. Ivdr seen many single ended amps blown up because they dont like to look directly into af capacitor. They need a load to run stable.

    I dont know how the b&w top input is configured. But if the amps look in to a transformer og coil you should be fine. :)
     
  20. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Rolltide, may I suggest that you have a conversation with @Otlset, as he has used an OTL based amplifier for many years and has some hands on experience in tube rolling. He has ultra efficient Avantguarde speakers connected to his OTL.

    He might be able to offer some of his suggestions to you for consideration.
     
  21. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    I believe the Oto is a parallel single ended Pentode amp. It's not an OTL. My SEP amp came with a pair of Phillips EL84 Black Plates. I have subbed them out with a pair of Telefunken EL84s and Mullard EL84s. The Phillips were just as good as either of the pricey tubes. I actually have to say the Teles, for me, didn't live up to their hype.
     
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  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    No hype, Tele EL-84s are terrible.
     
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  23. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    I thought they were a bit thin and lacking in bass, and a little harsh overall compared to the Mullards and the Phillips.

    Any EL84s that you recommend?
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Mullard. GE. Westinghouse.
     
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  25. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    After my original OEM pair of 6SN7's died in my (division of Cary) preamp, I tried some Soviet military surplus tubes, they were dirt cheap on eBay. And. they sound great! I now leave my pre-amp on 24/7 and they are still going strong. Just in case, I bought a whole lot more. Enough to last me...
     
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