The Church - Anyone compared orig. early CDs to Inglot remasters? Latest remasters?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by TMan, Mar 7, 2004.

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  1. TMan

    TMan Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I noticed that my early Church CDs were "remastered by Bill Inglot at KDisc". Any other Church fans here? Do un-remastered CD versions exist, or did he remaster the original CDs? If there are un-remastered versions, how do they compare? I know some people here say that his Rhino stuff it too trebly. Is this the case with his other work, too? Tough to say how the Church stuff is without a comparison - maybe the master tapes weren't that great in the first place.

    How are the latest remasters? Any improvement?

    Thanks for any help!
     
  2. average Joe

    average Joe New Member

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Another fan of The Church! I don't seem to meet many.

    I can give you some help on this one. The Blurred Crusade is one of my very favorite albums so I've listened to a few releases to get the best. Here's what I've found, listed from worst to best:

    EMI 7243 5 39496 0 0 Two disc set. Remastered by Don Bartley 2002. Over-compressed and irritating to listen to.

    Arista ARCD-8564 Remastered by Bill Inglot and Ken Perry. The sound is somewhat uptilted (trebly), but not over-compressed like the above one. I can listen to this one and still enjoy it.

    Parlophone/EMI 7906252 Australian Import. It does not list who did the mastering. Aaaaah! This is much better. Lacks the faults of the above 2. It's the original release from Australia and is not remastered. This is the one to get. (Although, like you, I do suspect the master tapes weren't great to start with.) I believe I got it from Amazon a couple years ago so it may still be available.

    Some others:

    Forget Yourself Their latest release. Mastered by Don Bartley. Another victim of the loudness wars. This is one over-compressed piece of crap. I'm selling it to the used CD store. A shame because I like the music but it's too irritating to listen to.

    Heyday EMI Remastered by Don Bartley 2002. It got the same crap treatment as Forget Yourself.

    So it seems whenever it says Don Bartley you can expect his irritating in-your-face over-compressed sound signature. And he has done all the latest remasters and the latest release. It's a real shame that The Church's catalog is being ruined by him.

    Now I will add that the above are just my opinions made with my ears and my equipment. And I am (unfortunately) very sensitive to compression. So you may actually like the remasters. Which is great. I'm sure others will. But personally I would search for earlier releases.

    Which albums of theirs do you like? I haven't heard them all.
     
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  3. goodyear61

    goodyear61 Member

    Location:
    Copenhagen,Denmark
    Absolutely! "The Unguarded Moment" is still the best song about teen angst EVER!
    I did NOT know the CD`s had been remastered, when did this happen?
     
  4. VUDSM

    VUDSM Senior Member

    Location:
    AUSTRALIA
    Hi Guys,

    Another Church fan here (although I lost interest after "Priest = Aura"). I've got all their early stuff on vinyl and they sound great. The only Church album I have on CD is "P=A" and the sound is average. If "Of Skins and Heart", "The Blurred Crusade", "Starfish" etc sound poor on CD then it is in the mastering, not the master tapes.
     
  5. audio

    audio New Member

    Location:
    guyana

    That's disappointing to hear your take on the remasters, Joe. I rushed out and traded three of my hard to find original discs for those right when they came out. This was during my "before the forum-blindly buy any remaster 'cause it must be better" phase. Oh well. Now I'll have to get my hands on the original discs and do a comparison of my own.

    I don't agree with your take on the new album, though. While I don't think it's a masterpiece in terms of dynamics and sound quality, I think you may be missing the point of what they are trying to do in terms of creating a mood piece. I think they are making it sound murky intentionally, in other words. Besides, it's a really great album.

    Glad to see another thread on the Church. They are one of my favorite bands of all time! I absolutely LOVE them.
     
  6. bonjo

    bonjo Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I really don't think this cd is a 'victim of the loudness wars'. I think the sound is intentional and meant to convey an outer-spacey/hazy/dreamy feel. It's a shame you are going to sell it - it's a GREAT record.

    As far as other Church cd's go, the Bill Inglot/Ken Perry Arista ones from the late 80's sound great to me. EMI Australia released remastered versions of the first 5 a year or so ago. The sound is pretty LOUD all around, but they do have some plusses: the packaging is amazing, with exact reproductions of the original cover art, and you get bonus tracks and videos neatly packed away on separate bonus discs. In addition, the EMI Australia release of 'Sing Songs' is the only one available on cd. I'm keeping all of them.

    I've always wondered if there were other Church fans roaming around on this forum, it's good to see I'm not the only one!

    - joe s
     
  7. A friend of mine and I have been mid-level Church fans for years. However much like VUDSM, I haven't heard anything since Priest = Aura. I attempted to see Steve Kilby and Marty Wilson-Piper on their Church acoustic tour in June of 1994. I was at the end of my honeymoon in Hollywood for a couple of days and found out that the concert was happening in a small club. It was already sold out. :( I tried to plead my case with one of the staff, that I had come all the way from Calgary, Alberta, but it didn't help. I see The Church are touring now, but no Canadian dates. Oh well, one day maybe...

    BTW, the same night Buffalo Tom were playing two shows at McCabe's and they were both sold out as well. I wasn't having much luck finding a cool concert to attend in the big city.
     
  8. TSmithPage

    TSmithPage Ex Post Facto Member

    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    I have all of the Church's records on CD. I got into the band after their single "Under the Milky Way" and subsequently accumulated the rest. Most of their early stuff was treated to a new remastering a couple of years ago in Australia with bonus tracks added. I haven't been able to track down any of these remasters yet and am sorry to hear they sound bad. However, if you're a Church fan, I strongly recommend you track down some of the solo records of the members, especially Wilsson-Piper's stuff on Ryko.
     
  9. HeavyDistortion

    HeavyDistortion Senior Member

    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    I'm a huge Church fan; in fact I just saw them in concert last night and was very impressed. Anyway, I, like Prix, went out and bought the new remasters of "The Blurred Crusade" (My favorite Church release) and "Heyday", and dumped my older CDs. IMO, they don't sound that bad to my ears, but I no longer have the older CDs to compare them to. I do really like the sound of their "Hindsight" 2 CD compilation, released years ago by EMI in Austrailia, and I guess that I'll have to compare the tracks from that compilation with the newly remastered tracks. I have not yet heard the "Forget Yourself" CD, but I did hear some of the songs done live last night, and really liked what I heard.


    Ed Hurdle
    HeavyDistortion
     
  10. TMan

    TMan Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Great to see other Church fans on here! Saw them Fri (4th time - 5th if you count the NYC gig a few years ago where Steve got arrested before the show and Marty valiantly soldiered on with a roadie on bass) - they really are a great live act. Currently on tour and very highly recommended (see earlier thread).

    Thanks for the help with different versions - looks like I might have to hunt down the early imports. Glad I hadn't thrown down the bucks to get the new remasters. I have the bonus tracks from them on Hindsight. I think a friend of mine has the Blurred Crusade import with the ugly white cover. I'll have to borrow it to compare.

    Really curious about Seance. Did the latest remasters do anything to reduce the very annoying "gunshot" 80's drum sound?

    Re: Forget Yourself - yes its somewhat "murky", but as others have said it might be intentional. This would be consistent with the "blurry" cover image. Great album anyway. I do listen to some not-exactly-high-fi bands like the Fall and Guided by Voices, so I guess I have a little more tolerance for that sort of thing, but things that are OVER-produced or compressed just to be loud, and therefore reduce the dynamics (esp if the waves are cut off creating "unintentional" distortion) really annoy me.

    Average Joe and others re albums: As far as other albums besides Blurred Crusade go, I assume you have Starfish but if not it is a must - absolute classic (all the songs are great, not just Under the Milky Way). Different fans will give different favorites, but personally I like Hologram of Baal a lot. (If you haven't heard anything after P=A, I highly recommend checking this one out. I stopped following them after P=A as well, then picked this one up a year or so ago and got right back into full-fledged Church mode, especially since Peter re-joined and they have toured near me the last couple of years). More melodic than a lot of their other later stuff. Many people (including me) like Priest=Aura - great moody, slightly sinister atmosphere with great sound and powerful drumming courtesy of Jay Dee Daugherty borrowed from the Patti Smith Group. After Everything Now This (last year) is really good as well - you can really listen in and drift away with it - less immediately catchy but more complex and layered than the early stuff. Of course, the new one Forget Yourself is getting some great reviews. I just got it and am not sure yet after 1 1/2 listens whether I like it more than AENT.

    Sometime Anywhere and Magician Among the Spirits are generally considered low points (they lost one of their guitarists (since rejoined) and a lot of fans during this period), but some really like Magician Among the Spirits for its more experimental feel - others (including singer/lyricist Steve Kilbey) think it's pretentious crap (however, it does have a couple of obviously great songs, like almost all of their albums. The "+ some" version adds bonus tracks that are better than many of the original ones). Gold Afternoon Fix is a strange one because the drummer was kicked out halfway through so some songs use a drum machine and the band was not happy with it, due to several reasons including record company pressure to follow up Starfish, but I like it - a case where the band may not have liked the way it turned out, but if you didn't know that and just put the thing on it is a good album.

    Hmmm... Since I've gone this far I'll mention all the albums: Remote Luxury (3nd "album") is a compilation of 2 Australian EPs, re-released last year together with Sing Songs EP for a combination of all 3 early EPs - not the best place to start expanding the collection. Heyday came right before Starfish and is very energetic and melodic with a couple of great, classic Church songs that are a staple of the current live act, but also has some dated production touches, esp. a couple of keyboard-horn parts - a mixed bag that some reviewers laud and other people don't care for much as a whole. Seance (4th album) is a great Church album - song wise - that captures their mysterious, vaguely "occultish" sounding "aura", but has a famously dated "gun-shot" electronic snare drum sound on a number of tracks. Normally I don't like recordings being tampered with after the fact, but if they could re-record just the drum track, or even just the snare, this album would be greatly improved. I still listen to it anyway. Of Skins and Heart - 1st album - has some great stuff on it. Driving, melodic - sounds a bit more "new-wavy" or early "alternative rock-y" than everything that came after. Blurred Crusade - 2nd album - is many fans' favorite. More "folk-rocky" (some acoustic guitar), and "dreamy" than Skins and Heart - 1st track "Almost With You" is a classic.

    There's my rambling, non-sequential Church album summary (can check allmusic.com for order). Great to spread the "gospel" of the Church!!

    Any more comments re: different versions/masters of early stuff?
     
  11. JohnG

    JohnG PROG now in Dolby ATMOS!

    Location:
    Long Island NY
    How would you guys rank The Church albums (from best to average).

    I think Starfish is their best.
     
  12. TMan

    TMan Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Church Album Ratings

    Forget Yourself: Too soon to tell. Certainly at least a seven, with higher potential (probably 7.5-9). Can't get the Telepath out of my head. (Getting rave reviews, as did After Everything)

    10/10 Starfish (Pretty much flawless psychedelic guitar pop/rock)
    9/10 Hologram of Baal (Great songs, terrible name. Very lush, full. Melodic and "dreamy". 1 or 2 songs are just "pretty good")
    8.7/10 Priest=Aura (Used to be right behind Starfish for me - I may have over-played it (not to mean overrated!). Great spooky atmosphere. A little too close to U2 in one or two spots (echo guitar). Add points if it is at night in the fall; add more if it is Halloween.
    8.3/10 After Everything Now This (Let the sounds take you away! Soundscape out to the horizon)

    7.8/10 Gold Afternoon Fix (Have to listen to this again - nothing here that I don't like. Beginning of "atmospheric" sounds expanded upon on P=A. Some great songs on here. Gets under-rated in my opinion, probably because of the expectations after Starfish)
    7.4/10 Seance (Great songs, lousy production. Would be higher if not for that snare drum effect mentioned in post above)
    7/10 Blurred Crusade (A fan favorite. I like it, just not as much as some fans. Great jangle-pop, with a melancholy feel. Drags just a bit to me in a couple of spots. My ranking could go up at times. If you like Robyn Hitchcock get this now)

    6.8/10 Heyday (Mixed bag for me. A few great songs. Their "day-time" album - very upbeat. Some of the Church's most rambunctious moments. Would sound great blaring out of the car window speeding down the desert highway. Add points if doing this. Dated keyboard-horn in some places loses points. Sometimes I may judge this a bit higher)
    6.5/10 Of Skins and Heart (Couple of really great songs with great jangly-crunchy guitar sound, some "pretty good" ones.)

    6/10 Magician Among the Spirits (Comedown is worth a couple of points alone. Experimental, spooky, very mellow-psychedelic in some parts (esp. title track), couple of good songs. I like a couple of the "weirder" songs, but its boring in a few places. Add points successively if listening a) after midnignt b) with candles c) whilst wearing a cloak. One good aspect is Peter contributing to a couple of songs after being MIA for Sometime Anywhere)
    5.5/10 Remote Luxury (have not heard Sing Songs EP that is added to remaster) (Combination of 2 EPs, 3 on remaster. A couple of good songs, one BAD one - Maybe These Boys, the consensus "worst Church song ever" with those blaring fake horn keyboards. What were they doing with this one? Appreciate the effort, glad they never went down whatever road that song would have led to)
    4/10 Sometime Anywhere (down to just 2 original members + session people. Just doesn't click - many (including me) stopped following them at this point. Church has to have that great 2 guitar interplay between Marty and Peter)

    What a great surprise to have them back on form now with 3 great albums in a row, and fantastic live shows!
     
  13. TMan

    TMan Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Seance on EMI before 2002 remasters??

    Does anyone know if Seance was released in Australia on EMI before the Arista version like other early albums, or is Arista the first version of this title for some reason? The discography on Hotel Womb does not list one.
     
  14. Cousin It

    Cousin It Senior Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    If you look at the latest Australian remasters,take a look at the photos of the tape boxes,they are marked "EQ'D COPY MASTER" :realmad:
    Seems EMI used whatever they had sitting around on the shelf.I have a feeling the 1st gens. are in the U.S as Bob Clearmountain used to mix their albums as I recall and the multis would still be over there as well I'd assume.
    My live Church story goes back to April 1988(the first time I saw them).I went to a now sadly defunct club in Sydney called "The Tivoli" and the band were 6 weeks away from releasing their Starfish album and they debuted pretty much the entire album that night as I recall,Steve Kilbey was announcing each song before they played it.I'll never forget when SK introduced "Reptile" and Marty Willson-Piper played the echoed riff,I knew I was hearing a classic.
     
  15. JohnG

    JohnG PROG now in Dolby ATMOS!

    Location:
    Long Island NY
    thanks for the list of albums TMan!.

    I have 3 (Starfish/ Gold Afternoon Fix/ Priest=Aura) and the Best Of collection that's been available in the US for years.

    I love their sound and never knew they were still recording.

    I'll need to get Forget Yourself.
     
  16. bonjo

    bonjo Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I always thought the Arista cd's were the first time any of the first 5 albums were released on cd. I believe the first Church cds out of Australia were the compilations 'Hindsight' (EMI) and 'Conception' (Carrere??).

    On either version of Seance that I have (EMI remaster and Arista), the music is still a (near)victim of the lousy mix.

    In defense of the remasters, I think it's clear that at least a little thought went into putting these together - tracking down the bonus footage (e.g. 'the blurred crusade' short film), restoring the cover art, putting the bonus tracks on a separate disc - and hopefully that care extended to using the best tapes available. I haven't level-matched A-B tested them against the Aristas, so take my sound-quality opinions with a grain of salt. Still, they sure are LOUD.

    - joe s
     
  17. thxdave

    thxdave "One black, one white, one blonde"

    I'll never forget the time I first heard those beautiful ringing guitar chords at the beginning of "Under the Milky Way". I've used that song to audition several stereo systems and many of them just can't do justice to the overtones and harmonics in that intro. The real test comes at the end of the song when the bagpipes (yikes!) are brought into the mix. It's enough to make your ears bleed if your system (or the mastering) is harsh. Can anybody tell me which release (either album or compilation) has the best sounding version of "Under..."?
     
  18. audio

    audio New Member

    Location:
    guyana
  19. Jimbo

    Jimbo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Zero/Zero Island
    I'd like to throw in a plug for Box of Birds, the Church's all-covers album. For one thing, they have great taste in music, and secondly, they add a unique touch to each song, even the Beatles' "It's All Too Much." Try it, you'll like it! :agree:
     
  20. average Joe

    average Joe New Member

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Wow! I didn't think there would be this much response. Great posts by all.

    Don't take my post as gospel and please excuse my overzealous criticism. I'm just very sensitive to compression. If it doesn't bother you as much you might like the remasters better. I would be very interested to hear what you think if you do the comparison.


    Actually that's my favorite type of music. :)

    What I meant was that it has that in-your-face compressed sound which to me is irritating. I don't mean The Church's music, I mean the way it was engineered. Before I came to these forums I didn't know what compression was. I only knew that I didn't like it when I heard it. I wish it wasn't so but that's just me. I do think Forget Yourself is good music.

    Enough of my overANALyzing. Everyone is going to get the wrong impression - I actually like music!

    Thanks for ranking the albums TMan. That's a good guide.

    Hey Prix, I really liked Mellow Drunk. I put them on my "Look out for" list.
     
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