MMG Questions (and Impressions)

Hi Doc,

First, perhaps this will be of use.

I've always set up Maggies as decribed in the linked article, with ~1/3 the room width between inside edges, tweeters toward the inside, pads (resistors) in place. I leave ~1/3 the room's depth behind the speakers, measured from the front inside edge of the speaker.

Toe-in requires experimentation but I've had good success aiming them at the center of the wall behind the listening position.

My room is fully treated with bass traps, absorption at the first reflection points and diffusion of later reflections but I've used the same placement in untreated rooms with good success. (Obviously, those would sound still better if treated.)

As to the sub, as I said, wait until they've got 400-500 hours on them so you know what they can do on their own. If you decide you want more low bass, I strongly suggest a pair of subs, placed close behind and slightly outboard of the main pair. And be prepared to spend a lot of time adjusting the subs' controls to get them to blend properly and not degrade the Maggies. (I'm using a pair of Outlaw subs, crossed over at 30 Hz. The level control on the subs is ~1, out of 10.)

Another thing that will give you more apparent bass extension, as well as a host of other benefits in every category I know how to describe, is adding a trio of roller bearings under each Maggie. I use a 1/2" marble tile, smooth side down, atop the balls of the roller bearings, then a 1" maple ply "platform" sized to match the "H" made by the Maggies' feet, then the Maggies atop the platform. I cannot recommend this one highly enough (for any speaker in fact).

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Thanks Barry - I'm going to try this placement technique tonight! Will report back with results. Mike

 

Well, I tried Barry's formula and I must say that the results are amazing. Big difference in sound right off the bat. Now, selling my wife on the idea that black monoliths need to be 5 feet 4 inches out into the room is another matter, but fortunately they are in my office so it's not too big a deal.

Man, I didn't know what "tweaking" was until I bought these speakers. It's almost like The Sorcerer's Apprentice or some other cartoon scenario: Innocent-looking, inexpensive speakers that begin an inexorible process, leading eventually to leveling the house and starting over...

But what sound! I'm going to have to admit that, in some ways, these $600 speakers give the 20K Avantgardes I once owned a run for their money. But you have to earn that sound. Just keep in mind that buying these is the beginning of an audiophile quest, not the end. But that's the point of this hobby, isn't it!

 

Measured to the center of the front panel, my MMG's are 22" from the side wall and 20" from the rear wall. Nothing in the corners, angled inward with flippers unengaged.

I called Magneplaner Monday to ask about the flapping sound I get sometimes mostly with vinyl.

The tech said it's caused from the small driver hitting the frame (I think that was how he said it). Basically, he said, I need to lower the volume or I need the bigger version. When I asked which ones he thought would work better for me, he said I need to listen to them somewhere but there isn't anywhere near me to do that.

When I asked about the glue issues I read about, he said if the glue came loose, it would sound terrible at all volume levels.

He sort of discouraged my "high" I have with these though because he worded them as giving someone audiophile sound at Best-Buy prices. I felt dooped and I kind of lost some of my love for them after he made them sound like a poor man's speaker system.

Like I'm not worthy or something. He seemed rather snooty.

 

This works best on my 1.6s...

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

 

P2CH wrote

" The tech said it's caused from the small driver hitting the frame (I think that was how he said it). Basically, he said, I need to lower the volume or I need the bigger version. When I asked which ones he thought would work better for me, he said I need to listen to them somewhere but there isn't anywhere near me to do that. "

This might seem out of left field , but , could it be that the amp is clipping when You hear the " Flapping " ? The reason I ask is that , maybe the the dynamic range that vinyl has , is causing the amp to run out of steam . Just a random thought .

I listen to Rock & Roll with my MGII's at loud listening levels also , and have not heard any anomalies from them . I am using a pair of M200 Outlaw Mono blocks to power them , the Maggies just keep on Singing . . . Louder and Louder . . . Filling the room with Heavenly Music .

I tried other amps with these Maggies also , I tried a pair of NAD 2200 's and my older NAD 3080 , and a Denon AVR 2802 , None of these drove the Maggies worth a darn . ( The NAD's di not like the 4ohm Load at All )

 

Doc Sarvis wrote

" Well, I tried Barry's formula and I must say that the results are amazing. Big difference in sound right off the bat. Now, selling my wife on the idea that black monoliths need to be 5 feet 4 inches out into the room is another matter, but fortunately they are in my office so it's not too big a deal. "

Doc, what about moving the Maggies out to the position You found works Great when listening to music , and then moving them back when not listening to music ?
This is what I do , I can not have the Maggies out from the wall 5 foot all the time , I do when listening to them , but , when not in use I tuck them back against the wall .

Glad that You have have Found So much Enjoyment from Them . . . It's simply Amazing what these Speakers will Do . . . and You are talking about Bone Stock MMG's . Great Product Value .

Cheers , Stephen

 

Hi P2CH,

I've heard MMGs playing loudly enough to drive me from the room. They had no problem with the level.

I suspect the amp does not have good control of the speaker (I've said before that PA type amps don't have the control Maggies need).

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Just for fun, try pulling the speakers way out in the room (1/3 of the way out) and see if you still get the problem. Better yet, try Barry's recomended placement technique and see what happens. I'm wondering if you might be getting some sort of bass resonance. The MMG owner's manual actually advises against placing them the same distance from back and side walls - yours are pretty close to equidistant.

 

I find it strange also that volume is problem for you. I've never heard my MMG's get distorted. I sometimes listen at volumes when my wife says she can hear my stereo loud and clear in the park next door. There's really nobody else that will listen at the volumes I enjoy when it's ROCK time.

You may want to try another amp, it is likely you'll get better results...

 

Hi P2CH,

It occurs to me that another possibility is that you like to listen a lot louder than what I may think of as very loud. If this is the case, you would need either larger Maggies or more likely, a much more efficient speaker.

However, if you love the sound of the Maggies, I'd still think about an amp that can "grab hold" of them properly. You could be hearing the mylar "bottoming" due to inadequate damping in the amp. (PA amps are not known for "grabbing hold", regardless of how much the designer destabilizes the power supply to attain a "high" wattage rating.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentuadio.com

 

Outlaw Amp/MMG combo preamp suggestion.

Hi Barry,

Everyone seems happy with your Outlaw Amp/MMG combo. I was wondering, what is your go-to preamp for this combination?

Thanks,
Scott

 

I'm not happy with it.

 

Hi Doc,
I have found that the same thing that makes planar speakers work is also their own worst enemy. That is the fact that they have such a large, light radiating area. It sounds like it would work great when you read the poop sheets and hear them say just how wonderful the design principle is but then they leave out the gory details.

As you have found, placement is a real pain with any planar speaker, not just the MMG. The large diaphragm is just about as sensitive to second and third reflections as it is to its own primary forces. That is to say that after the speaker produces a tone, the tone will bounce back and forth in the room and then hit the diaphragm causing distortion. So it can lower distortion over some but not all other designs in one sense by being a lighter and dual phase device but then it actually is subject to its own output in a feedback situation.

This feedback is hard to deal with because not only is the speaker so susceptible to this but it is also very inefficient. That creates a situation where help is very difficult because the primary way to treat the problem is by absorbing sound in the room, thereby further reducing the sound levels. Barry has given you some very good advise on placement. You need to get them well out from the back wall but also well way from the room center. That's an odd spot for many "real world dwellings" but doable in a dedicated room where you don't have a significant other with opposing decorating ideas. Now, where you'll really get the best sound is to place a very absorptive sound panel directly behind each speaker on the back wall. it needs to be a thick, wide-band absorber so that it pretty much soaks up the back wave from the speaker. The reason is that it will drastically reduce the most significant reflective sound wave both in terms of frequency and time, to disturb the speakers diaphragm. It will attenuate the speaker even a bit more but the real benefit is getting rid of the muddy mids that result from not having it in place. A lot of folks find them to sound over-polite, and this is one reason.

Where I have to disagree with Barry who usually gives very sage advice on speaker systems and room treatment is with the suggestion of roller bearings under the speakers. That is the opposite of what you want to actually do. Now, it is perhaps true that it will help in some situations where the speaker wants to wobble and then get a sympathetic vibration of its own going on, but it isn't the best way to deal with it. What it does is allow the speaker to "go with the flow" (well oppose the flow in a rhythmic manner but I digress) rather than to keep the speaker from moving. The best performing device is a spike to keep a speaker still, despite its own forces trying to move it. You don't want to hear the driver and the box, just the driver. That's another argument that planar speaker fans like to point out "no box colorations" but you'll find that they have an entirely new set of deficiencies and challenges in their place, we'll just call that another classic trade-off in audio quality. The planar speaker and Maggies in particular have a challenge that is greater than box speakers in this regard. You can spike a heavy box and it'll stay pretty still, resulting in lower overall distortions but the large diaphragm and light frame on the Maggies makes them very hard to keep still. The movement at the top is a lot more than at the bottom and so they need a reinforced stand system to keep that in check (not many folks will attach them rigidly to a ceiling or create false walls, etc to house them). So whether you use spikes and strengthen the frames or you use rollers, you'll reduce some of that tendency for them to wave about and improve their sound in that way.

Last thing that I'll mention, although it's certainly not the end of the troubles, is the directionality of them. I have to agree with you Doc, that I really didn't care for the Avante Garde set either, even in comparison to the Maggies despite the fact that the AG Duos offer better dispersion. The one thing that I never really could get over about a planar design is the terrible beaming effect which made it a solo event, having to have "your head in a vise" in order to keep the imaging and soundstage stable. So while I am not a great fan of big horn speakers, neither am I of planars. The concept is cool if the problems could be overcome (and the speakers could ideally be attached to a wall - now that would be a WAF ace) but I have yet to see (or hear) any company achieve a total success over these issues, even those that curve the diaphragms. There is nothing that beats a great dynamic speaker system for me even with their own problems. That said, I really like the natural phase response and effortless pace of the best planar speakers, if I were able to live with them. My favorites were the Apogee ribbon systems. If you thought the 4 ohm maggies required a big amp, you should have tried finding (or paying for) a mate for my Scintillas, which were a 1 ohm load...

So if you are finding everything coming together there with the new placement, I suggest that you do what I did when I tried cohabiting with a behemoth pair of flat panels. Mark the floor along the front line of the speakers so that you'll know where they go for listening. Then, move them against the wall so that you can walk around and use your space when you are not. Second, make a thick and dense foam or composite foam/cotton, etc pad (maybe 4" + deep) about the size of the speakers and place it behind the speakers, against the wall to kill that first horrendous rear wave reflection from hitting the panel. It's a sonic tsunami . You can experiment for fee by stacking a few pillows behind them (while the Missus is out so that you don't here the suggestion that perhaps you'd rather sleep with Maggie ;-) You can even make a matching wood trim for the panels if you do fall in love. There is a fellow that makes a dedicated stand for the MMG as well as a x-over upgrade I believe, if you don't feel like tackling a structural mod to keep them more stable. Some folks like the looks better, some not as much but most all report better sound from them. There are some links below.
-Bill

http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/
http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/magnepan_mg36r.htm

 

Barry has been following my issues since I've purchased the MMG's and he may be right in saying the amp has something to do with the sound I sometimes hear.

However, according to the peak indicators on my amp, it isn't hitting clipping when I hear the noise.

I think I am pushing them too hard. They get warm I drive them so hard. I even smelled them.

They sound fabulous and I just need to learn to enjoy the quality verses the quantity. No other speaker I own gives me what Maggies can.

I appreciate the comment on their placement and that would be a simple and fun thing to experiment with.

Maybe some day I can move up to a larger size. I'm sure I wouldn't be dissapointed.

 

I disagree with the idea of totally absorbing the back wave of a planar speaker. In my listening room (I have Apogee Duetta Signatures) I have a bit of Sonex on the back wall between my speakers to only absorb the back wave where crosstalk occurs. This Sonex significantly helps with the center image. In my experience, totally absorbing the back wave from a planar speaker steals some of the "planar magic" from the sound.

YMMV, of course.

 

I felt that the back waves from a Maggie is a piece of the heart for which they derive their full sound. I think the back waves play with the front waves to give them the proper resonance.

I moved mine further out from the rear wall: 30" from the rear and 26" from the side. I like what I'm hearing but the left channel is like right in my face when I'm sitting at my computer.

It sure sounds clean though. The sub woofer sits on the left side too so I get a real punchy sound.

 

Yeah, they do need a load of power but the trouble with the MMGs is that they can't do but so much, no matter the power provided. So you end up just bashing them with more power after they have reached their limits. They are not the most dynamic type of speaker so it either meets your expectations and requirements in that regard or not. If they are getting hot and you are smelling them (or the amp), then they are not going to cut it for your use. You could try using a pair of subs and then an external electronic x-over to keep the MMGs at a frequency range in which they would perform more optimally but it would be an expensive upgrade and frankly I don't think that it'd make sense. It'd be like putting a $2000 set of rims on a '76 Pinto... . You would dig the larger set if you are liking what the smaller ones do and of course have the space for them and can live with their restrictions.
-Bill

 

I won't argue that point one bit. In fact it is operationally impossible for the speaker to not have some rear wave output and be phase coherent or even have a flat response. That is the crux of being a dipole. The point is that it is also a source of distortion and so a true Achilles heel of the design.

I suppose that it is possible in some rooms with significant depth to have no absorption behind the speakers and to not have such a concentrated rear wave reflection to hit the speakers diaphragm. On the other hand, having a significantly deep room also means more volume and so the speakers lack of efficiency is probably not leaving us any better off than in a smaller room with the absorption panels in place. As with all things involving acoustics... YMMV.
-Bill

 

Thanks for the post - I will try the room treatments. Good one about "sleep with Maggie".

 

Hi KT88,

We may have to agree to disagree on a number of things.
First, any good speaker, planar or otherwise, needs to be properly placed (and that means well away from walls) in order to perform its best. Maggies are no exception to this rule. The better the potential of the speaker, the more it will suffer from bad placement.

As to reflections from the room hitting the diaphragm and "causing distortion", I don't think the reflections have anywhere enough power to disturb the Maggies or any other speaker.

The bottom line is for many folks, including myself, this type of speaker does a superb job of sounding like Music. It would seem they're not your sonic cup of tea.

I disagree BIG TIME here. First, there is the common and quite mistaken assumption the speakers will move backward, in Newtonian fashion, as their drivers move forward. With properly designed and implemented roller bearings, the resonance of the compliant structure is well below anything the speaker (or even the deepest reaching sub) will ever reach.

Movement at the top is also not such a problem with roller bearings, as it is with rigid mounting of a planar.

I don't know if you've ever heard a good set of roller bearings under a loudspeaker (Maggie or otherwise) or even Townshend's marvelous Seismic Speaker Stands, which accomplish much the same thing. The benefits, in every area of performance I know how to describe, are immediate and obvious. This is perhaps the single biggest, most effective and inexpensive tweak for loudspeakers I've ever heard.

Here again, we have very different perspectives. Controlled dispersion is not the same thing as "beaming" which I don't hear from any Maggies. On the contrary, wide dispersion only tends to create more early reflection problems in the listening room.

I've heard speaker that image and soundstage better (for >$100,000) and they too use controlled dispersion.

Well, I guess different perspectives are what makes the audio world go 'round.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi P2CH,

The amp can lack control long before it gets to clipping.
Some amps are just like that.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Welcome Scott, Barry has convinced me that a pair of M2200's is the way to go. I plan on getting an NAD C162 preamp for the front end, what do you think of this choice Barry? Also which specific Nordost Flatline do you recommend? I see a couple of choices on their website. Thanks again.

 

Hi PMC7027,

I'm with you. I happen to have bass traps positioned on the wall behind each Maggie. These just happen to be there because I have 16" columns in each corner and midpoint and 9" columns at each wall's quarter point.

The 9" columns are not located directly behind but are slightly outboard of each Maggie. All the columns in the room have their soft side aimed toward the nearest speaker but these are designed to treat the room's acoustics and not to absorb the backwave of the Maggies, which has close to 6 feet of air before it encounters the wall behind each speaker.

This is another benefit of placing the speakers around the 1/3 points: the delay from the back wall (which can have decorative soft hangings if one desires) is sufficient to separate it from the direct sound coming from the speakers, which will be the prime thing heard by the listener.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Scott,

This is a tough one, particularly when for a system within this budget.
At one time, I'd have recommended the Audio Alchemy DLC (I still have mine), assuming a phono input isn't required.

The Outlaw pres look promising but it seems silly to have surround incorporated. If I were setting up this system for myself (or a good friend), I'd audition one anyway since their other stuff really punches far above its weight class.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com