MMG Questions (and Impressions)

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Doc Sarvis, Nov 19, 2008.

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  1. No Static

    No Static Gain Rider

    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Welcome, Scott :wave:.

    I'm not Barry (I could play one online :)) but I'm using the intergrated amp I was using before I got my Outlaw M200s (a Creek 5350SE) as my preamp. Works for me.
     
  2. LowRideDuh

    LowRideDuh Member

    Location:
    Missoula , Montana
    I am using a Onkyo Grand Interga P308 Pre Amp I bought new in 1986 , before using the Onkyo , I was running the 2 M200's thru my surround sound set up .

    The Denon AVR2802 did not like the 4 Ohm load, and so I hooked up the Mono Blocks to amplify the sound coming out on " Speaker B " . That's when I got the idea of dragging out the Onkyo .

    As a dedicated 2.1 set up , the Onkyo and the Outlaw mono blocks , along with the MGII's sound Amazing .
     
  3. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi ben_wood,

    I've not heard the C162 so I can't speak to that. I would consider one of the Outlaw pres though (despite their containing surround circuitry). I've not yet auditioned one yet but would be curious since the rest of the Outlaw gear I've tried seems outstanding for its price.

    For MMGs, which to not accept bi-wire cables, regular Nordost "Flatline" is what I recommend. (They call a bunch of their cables "Flatline" but I'm referring to the least expensive model. It is about 1.3 inches wide and you can see the copper wires through the clear insulation.) For interconnects, Nordost's Black Knight (if you can still find it) or one of their newer WyreWizard cables should fit the budget and do the job nicely.

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  4. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Hi Barry,
    And so we shall. First, I really can't say that we do about placement and its importance for sound. My only beef with the Maggies (in this regard...) is their interaction with the rear wall being much greater than with dynamic drivers of any type. It's not even debatable. The diaphragm is like a sail in that it is light and large and there is not enough electro-magnetic force, nor diaphragm rigidity to keep it from being effected by the rear wave reflection at any reasonable distance for most rooms. Now 6' out from the back wall certainly goes a long way (pardon the pun) to address this but it doesn't posses any magic wand for the balance of the force. The only disagreement here is your equation of this susceptibility with a dynamic speaker, which is incorrect. Dynamic speakers are significantly more well defended against external forces. I am not talking about room modes and sound waves arriving at the listener per conventional room acoustics principles, rather about the speaker being effected itself, and thus it's output.

    There is a similar effect with the coupling of the speaker to the floor vs it's isolation via rollers which you are confusing. I am aware that you understand the difference. The reasoning is what we disagree about here. There is in fact a "Newtonian fashion" movement as you put it due to a drivers movement. Just as in the sail example above, it may not make sense that a piece of foil so light can possibly move an entire speaker but then by that same logic, it would not make sense that something so light as a sail could move a ship. There is little argument that it does (even by the flat earth crowd ;)). This is not about compliance or the cabinet and resonance, but rather simple force, so your argument there is invalid. I won't doubt your preference for speakers set on roller bearings. What can I say? I'll just say that it will not keep them still. It will negate some resonances and it will form an average of sorts to keep them in that plane. In that regard, I suppose it's better than nothing for the tall and relatively light Maggies but it cannot be as effective as a truly solid brace. Simple physics will tell you that a rigid top and bottom frame would in fact allow the speaker frame to be attached to and be nearly as immovable as the anchor to which it is attached. I'll not call a ball immovable. So I suggest that you give the bracing and spikes a try as others who have found their benefits will also suggest and I'll give the rollers a try in fair trade. If it sounds better, then it can't be a bad thing even if it isn't the proper way to go about it according to our book smarts.

    Regarding the beaming, ie "controlled dispersion", I think a recent prime time speaker said it best when he related "You can put lipstick on a pig...". I mean, whatever you want to call it, it's still a problem. For me anyway as I don't want to sit alone with my head in a clamp to listen to music. That's not exactly my idea of fun. Even you have admitted (with your adoration for them) that these panels not only have extremely narrow dispersion in the horizontal plane but also in the vertical plane. That means that not only can you not move your head from side to side but that you can't even stand up when listening and not effect the response. Yuck. To each their own indeed. I have a pair of Tannoys at the moment and can sit three across our couch and listen with comfort in any position, with a group of friends. I can even lie on the floor and play games while still being in the "sweet spot". I like to call the Tannoys the "anti-Maggies" in that regard as they have perhaps the best dispersion available in a dynamic loudspeaker design. And they have controlled dispersion (they just control it better :winkgrin:). I'm not entirely sold on any certain brand of speaker, nor really design but for now I really do like conventional, dynamic designs of modern materials and engineering such as are being produced today. I have tried planars and omni's and I just don't like them as well. Of course that's just my opinion. I do like the sound of some of them for the most part, they all have some charm or the other. My points are only to address some weaknesses of this particular design in order to help those that do like living with them to better utilize them.
    -Bill
     
  5. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Bill,

    But I've debated it. ;-}


    Even if I were to accept this argument (to be clear, I do not) that reflection is causing some intermodulation in the driver, the bottom line for me, far outweighing such concerns (which I do not share), is which design sounds more like Music? Which design, at least in the iterations and implementations I've experienced, is more true to the sound of the input signal?

    I suppose our mutual decisions on what to have at home (or in my case, in the studio) answer these questions.


    If the roller bearing is properly designed and implemented, it will have a resonance in the low single digits. Nothing from the speaker -or any sub of which I'm aware- is going to disturb it with any degree of significance.

    Once again, even if I were to accept the argument (I do not), the bottom line is how does the speaker (any speaker, not just Maggies) perform when "afloat" on a good set of rollers? For me, after trying all sorts of footers and mounting schemes, the answer is that I would never again consider not floating my speakers (along with every other component in the system).

    It is the difference between James Taylor's water-clear, smooth voice (rollers) and James sounding like he has a sore throat (cones). It is the difference between the characteristic, crystal brilliance of his Martin (rollers) and an old guitar with rusty strings (cones). It is anything but subtle. As I've mentioned, Townshend's marvelous Seismic Speaker Stands will accomplish much the same thing - for considerably more money.



    But I'm arguing it. ;-}

    It is the voice coil that moves the foil, not the foil moving the speaker.
    Just as it is the wind pushing the sail, not the sail moving the ship.


    As I mentioned above, I've tried all the footers and mounting schemes (including bracing) that I've heard of. It isn't a question -for me- of rollers sounding better. It is a question of a wholesale performance improvement in every sonic category I know how to describe.

    I've often said: "Conventional wisdom is very often much more conventional than it is wise." I used cones for many years and found I liked them better than nothing at all. Then I did some experimenting and reached a new conclusion. If the old "right" way to do things isn't supported when one finds a new way that far, far, outperforms it, my thinking is that it is the "wisdom" that is in need of revision.


    Please re-read my post. I made a differentiation between beaming and "controlled dispersion". Also, "admitted...these panels not only have extremely narrow dispersion..."? I never said any such thing.

    All dipoles have narrow dispersion in the vertical plane. This is an asset, not a liability. As to horizontal dispersion, all of the speakers in my experience that I would call "great" have in common controlled dispersion. (Note I did not say "beaming" which would suggest very narrow dispersion.)
    It would appear we have different approaches.


    Again, all of the "great" speakers in my experience -and even most of the not so great ones- provide their best sound for a listener seated in the center. Further, all allow a reasonable amount of side to side movement without alteration of their sound. As to standing up when listening, this is not an issue with any Maggie (or any other great speaker) I've heard either.


    I guess it depends on which one produces Music for you. I would probably agree that in many ways, Tannoys are "anti-Maggies". But for me, this is not a complement.

    ***

    Anyway, thanks for the dialog. My experience has been that it is truly rare for any two audiophiles (or audio engineers) to agree on most things in this pursuit of ours. As long as we can agree on having fun, that's all that really matters to me in the long run.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  6. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    That's true. Whew... I was getting worried about ya for a minute. :winkgrin:
    That's why I don't order for everyone in the restaurant or suggest that they order for me when I go out... It only matters what I like.
    -Bill
     
  7. tps

    tps Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    When I first saw a Magnaplanar, my thought was that conventional wisdom precuded a speaker that looked like that from sounding good. Well, let's just say that I was pleasantly surprised. I realize that it's a lot more complex than I understand, especially with the diaphragm clamps and such, but whatever magic they use at the Magnapan factory, it sounds rather impressive.
     
  8. BluesDaddy

    BluesDaddy Member

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    Are the MMGs still a "factory direct" purchase? If so, how does one do this? The Magnepan website doesn't have a purchase option. Do you simply give them a call to order?

    Great thread - lots of interesting information.
     
  9. Doc Sarvis

    Doc Sarvis Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Utah USA
    Correct - You just need to call the 800 number to buy them.
     
  10. tps

    tps Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Yep, you call them on the phone. I called on Monday and my speakers arrived at my house on Wednesday.
     
  11. BluesDaddy

    BluesDaddy Member

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    Thanks for the responses. I'm looking to put together a Maggie HT with 12/QRs for the front and MMG Ws and C for center and surrounds.
     
  12. Veech

    Veech Space In Sounds

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    So Doc Sarvis and VinylMatters, what are your impressions of the MMGs now that you've had them for a couple of months? I'm ready to get a pair of MMGs as soon as I know I can get an amp that is within my budget.

    One topic that keeps coming up is regarding the "sweet spot" and that it tends to be very narrow. Three posters on this AVS thread (7 posts total) indicated the same thing: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=771000

    What do you MMG owners think, is enjoying the MMGs a solo experience? Can you still experience the full impact of the sound if you move a foot or two in either direction?

    And here is a silly question.. I will be running these from my PC, and I assume the soundcard output is pre-amp enough that I won't need an external pre, just a good power amp?
     
  13. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Veech,

    You can move clear across the room and even into the next room and still get the magic the Maggies provide. However, as with any good speaker, you get the best stereo and the most from what the speaker can do, if you're centered and in the "sweet spot".

    As to the sound card, quantity-wise (i.e. signal strength), if it can properly drive the amp you choose, that's all you need. The Maggies will let you know how good (or not) the card is quality-wise.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  14. tps

    tps Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    To me, the MMGs sound good just about anywhere in the room, but the sound "locks in" at the sweet spot and takes listening to a whole new level. As Barry says, the MMGs will let you know, in no uncertain terms, the quality of audio they are receiving. I used my PC's soundcard to for about a week before I got fed up with it's inadequacies and got a Benchmark DAC1 with a USB connection. A common complaint (if you can call it a complaint) of Mangepan owners is that they end up spending more money to upgrade the rest of their systems after getting the Magnepans... IMHO, Maggies will start one down a mostly wonderful road to discovering the sonic potential (and sometimes lack thereof) waiting to be heard in their collection.
     
  15. P2CH

    P2CH Well-Known Member

    Like Barry stated, all speakers have a sweet spot but my MMG's sound good anywhere I am in my front room. I do a lot of listening while standing up so some times I slip a CD case under them to tilt them back a little.

    I wish they incorporated that ability into them instead of just the forward tilt feature.

    They are very revealing speakers though. I installed high-pass filters for my power amp so they wouldn't hit bottom so easily. I somehow think the filters add something a little unpleasant but I don't know why they would if they are only cutting 30Hz.

    Don't know if it's my ears playing tricks on me. The thing is, they reveal everything so it's hard to tell what's part of the media playing through them and what's truly not.
     
  16. Veech

    Veech Space In Sounds

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Thanks for the feedback on the sweet spot. The more I research these speakers the more I am fascinated by the technology and the more I want to make sure they will fit my application since apparently I will be investing in more than just the speakers...

    .. and that's something I'm pretty much expecting. I am using the Creative Audigy 2 ZS Platinum which was basically the best soundcard available at the time I had my PC built, other than M-Audio's card. I went with the Creative because at the time I was more interested in gaming compatibility than audio quality. Which leads me to..

    so I did a quick search on the Benchmark unit and yikes! $$$! But it does have a headphone amp which is something I was looking for. But wow, this really is heading into serious territory dollar-wise. Did you look into less-expensive alternatives?

    Can I ask, what soundcard were you using before purchasing the DAC1?

    Meaning you go into a trial-and-error mode trying to figure out how to get better sound?

    Barry had mentioned a break-in period in a previous discussion that the MMGs need at least 100 hours to break in, and will hit their peak after 300 to 400 hours of use and the low end will beef up, reducing the desire for a sub-woofer. Do you guys run your MMGs with a sub?

    As for break-in, does it matter how loud you play the music during the break-in period? I plan to play something like Blood, Sweat and Tears S/T on repeat while I am at work, so the speakers would get about 10 hours a day of work-out. Is it better, worse or no difference whether I play it on 2, 5 or 8? Other than the fact that if I play it on 8 all day, the neighbors may have an issue.. heh!
     
  17. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi P2CH,

    If the speakers are bottoming, this is only due to one (or both) of the following:
    1. They are being driven to levels no one with an interest in preserving their hearing will use (i.e. well beyond loud).
    2. The amplifier driving them does not have the current capability or damping factor required for high fidelity listening.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  18. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Veech,

    Running them at normal (not high) listening level --or something close to this-- will ensure a good break-in. If playback level is too quiet, no harm done but the break-in period will take longer.

    Also, I'd choose a recording with more range (both frequency and dynamic) than B,S and T. Most pop is quite squeezed. A good classical recording like a Reference Recordings or Telarc CD will do a much better job. For pop, try something like one of Mark Knopfler's solo CDs. (I use the burn-in track from the Reference/XLO Burn-In CD.)

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  19. Doc Sarvis

    Doc Sarvis Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Utah USA
    They just keep improving. Honestly, I can't think of a better way to spend $600 in audio than a pair of MMGs. They are such a good price/performance ratio product that the price actually becomes irrelevant: MMGs can absolutely hold their own with components costing much, much more, and in fact, require more expensive associated components becasue the sound is so amazingly transparent. That's why I say that they are the "most expensive $599 speaker you will ever encounter", becasuse they will invariably cause you to disproportionately upgrade your associated components. For example: They are the first speaker (including Avantgarde Duos) that I have ever owned that CLEARLY demonstrate the difference (to my ears) between a wide range of CD players, CD and SACD layers, DACs, etc. - in the past the difference was present but subtle...not any longer.

    Interestingly, since I last posted here I have gone back to my Primaluna tube amp to power these. Even though the PL only puts out 35 wpc, I find the sound altogether more pleasing than the much higher wattage solid state amplification I have tried with these. Ultimately the ideal solution would be a much higher powered tube amp - but in the meantime the PL sounds wonderful.

    The MMGs have continued to sound better and better since I bought them. Once-bright highs have mellowed, and bass respoonse is more even and balanced. I am using a sub with them, but I keep the sub volume very low - currently set at 1 out of 10 volume, with the crossover around 75. I place them based on Barry's approach (posted in this thread I think) with excellent results.

    Bottom line: They are absolute keepers for me. The Maggie sound takes a little getting used to and the need break-in time (something I don't usually assign much credence to) is genuine - and lengthy. They sound great with a wide range of amps despite the conventional wisdom, with current and quality of sound reproduction being the key variables. They will inspire lots of adjustments, tweaks, experimenting, etc. to sound their best, with improvements seemingly always possible. That is half the fun with speakers like these - if that isn't your style they may not be a good fit. As for the placement issue you mention, I found that using the setup method Barry recommended produces a satisfying sound throughout the room. Yes, there is still a single sweet spot, but it's not much smaller than one normally gets with good speakers. So while the ideal sound is still a "solo experience", guests to my listening room are able to enjoy the music with me.

    P.S. Be sure to hook them up correctly! Unlike every other speaker on earth (it seems) the positive terminal is on the left side.
     
  20. Kustom 250

    Kustom 250 Active Member

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Man I want a pair.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for a good used power amp that will drive them properly? Maybe an old Yamaha, NAD or something along those lines? The rest of my system is sorta 1985 anyway and I don't buy stuff made in China or I'd be all over the Outlaw monoblocks.
     
  21. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Doc,

    If your sub allows it, try a lower crossover frequency.
    I'd suggest starting at 40Hz max and working down from there.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  22. No Static

    No Static Gain Rider

    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Hey Veech.

    I've included a pix of my setup. I'm so happy with these speakers I'm selling my 2 year-old Quad 22L floorstanders.

    As most everyone has previously stated there is a "sweet spot", but the nature of planers (equal front/back radiation) guarantee you good sound anywhere in the room. Mine are less than a foot from the side walls due to the narrow room but I do have room treatment...Bass Busters in the back and Echo Busters at the side reflection points. They're out 3 and-a-half feet from the front wall and toed-in slightly to my listening chair. I keep the flippers in the up position.

    Main amplification are my Outlaw 200wpc mono solid state amps (rack, bottom right) but I've also had success with my Creek intergrated (pictured in the right rack) and my pair of Heathkit 70wpc mono tube amps (on the floor) I use, especially in the winter.

    I'll sometimes use a Totem Storm subwoofer, but a sub would not really be missed. With proper placement you'll be surprised by the lows coming out of the MMGs.

    I love speakers. I feel that's the easiest way to change the sound of your system (well, duh). In addition to my MMGs I have a pair of Totem Model 1s and a pair of olders B&W 602 floorstanders I'll use on occasions. I believe I'll have the MMGs in my system for a very long time. The best "bang for the buck" I've ever had in my many years of audio.
     
  23. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi David,

    Have you tried the MMGs a bit closer to each other (further from the side walls)?

    I'd bring them in so each inside edge is more in line with the outside edge of each rack (or at least a little bit closer to that position). Aim them at the center of the wall behind the listening position.

    The current position puts the first sidewall reflection quite close to the speakers. It is obscuring some fine detail as well as some bass pitch definition and speed.

    This placement will give up nothing in terms of image width but it will get you a more cohesive soundstage.

    Just a thought.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  24. No Static

    No Static Gain Rider

    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Nope, but I will now. Sounds like a good weekend experiment for this weekend!

    A little closer together and a little more "toed-out" it is then.
     
  25. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi David,

    Keep in mind that if you use the MMGs tweeters-in, they need more toe-in than if they are used tweeters-out. In fact, they may need a bit more than simply aiming at the center of the wall behind the listening position.

    With the right toe-in, the bass "snaps" into focus.

    Have fun!

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
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