Moody Blues 2017 Reunion Tour

Hayward feels like he has less flexibility and certain expectations doing a moodys show so most of the set is already set and has been for 30 years. Its not like its John who's keeping the set the same. They could change if they wanted but feel obligated to play the hits.

From what they've said, john would like to do a new album and Justin doesn't see that as a viable option so he's the one keeping it from happening. He definitely doesn't feel an obligation to the band to make new music. A man's got to eat though.

 

For what it's worth, during the trial for Moraz v. The Moody Blues, John Lodge testified that he [Lodge] was "the captain" of The Moody Blues. What exactly that entailed I do not know, plus he made that statement 25 years ago.

 

yes I have watched that TV Trial - it was rather sad to see how they all behaved

Justin Hayward looking bemused and pretending he 'knew nothing' about anything was totally unconvincing...! (he rather reminded me of Manuel in 'Fawlty Towers' !)

Ray Thomas was equally 'Mr. Uninformed' while Graeme Edge played the jovial guy whose memories were strangely vague too...

John Lodge might be the most "business aware" - he came across as most astute and 'clued up' sensible band member (and he paid a lovely heartfelt tribute to Mike saying; 'Mike Pinder wrote some FANTASTIC songs for The Moody Blues' - cheers John !)

....but it's pretty clear that Hayward has long assumed control of The Moodies after Mike Pinder's retirement from the band in 1978

Hayward songs kicked off each subsequent album and mostly made the singles with the occasional exception like Lodge's 'Talking out of Turn'

Patrick Moraz spoke of how he composed the '2001' type instrumental intro to LDV but never got a composer credit and was permitted just 25 seconds or so of it to open LDV as it leads into Justin's song 'The Voice'

both original Moodies band members Graeme Edge and Ray Thomas were phased out over time - 'Sur La Mer' was pretty much done without them I believe

Moraz also spoke of having written a song very suitable for The Moodies to record, he said Hayward would ONLY agree to them doing it provided he took lead vocal and got a composer credit and took a sizeable chunk of the royalties

- Hayward of course strongly denied ever saying that...but it is noticeable that besides just the one co-write with Edge ('The Spirit' 1986 on TOSOL album) Moraz was apparently never able to or given access to contribute any of his material to the albums (I've been told he at least co-wrote the instrumental 'Hole in The World' on 'The Present' but it was segued into Lodge's 'Under My Feet' and Lodge took sole credit- how true that is we can only guess...)


certainly the 'Hayward-Lodge' team replaced Pinder (that is on the albums, never as a strong creative composer in my view) as the 'other' in house band songwriter besides Hayward, Thomas, Edge, and Lodge, from 1981 onwards

- tho' besides say the 'Gemini Dream' single I feel they too often wrote the weaker (and the most uncharacteristic of the band at it's best) 'filler' tracks on albums most notably on TOSOL, SLM, and KOTK albums (i.e. 'Slings and Arrows', 'Talkin Talkin', 'Miracle', 'Once is Enough' etc)

- Hayward has later even openly admitted those albums DID contain some purely 'filler' tracks...(which must have grated with messers Edge, Moraz, and Thomas - tho' I suspect after 1983 Ray was by then fast losing interest anyway, plus his health was not great from then on...)

Graeme Edge has been quoted as saying he felt the 1991 KOTK album was;
'...A load of old Bol*ocks...!'

- we can only guess IF he actually did say that...but it makes you wonder

Apparently the superbly talented artistic painter Phil Travers whose cover art so characterised the 'core seven' albums and some solo album gatefold sleeves offered to do the cover painting for KOTK - but his services were apparently and amazingly declined...

on the songwriting front the Edge-Moraz partnership might have made a MUCH needed vital other songwriting team for them - the band needed as much 'in house' creative input as possible by then - with Edge doing lyrics and Moraz composing music while Ray Thomas contributions were much missed in the later 80's - emphasising the absence of Pinder's powerful creativity all the more....as the band too often tried to be 'mega contemporary' and played to their weakness not strengths !

this makes you wonder IF the songwriting had become a 'closed shop' for composer royalties purposes...?

at that TV trial they try to say Moraz was 'never a Moodie' - BUT THEY were the ones proudly calling him that in 1978 and credited him as a band member on four studio albums from 1981 onwards, and he was included the group photos on TOSOL 1986, and featured in the photos on SLM innersleeve in 1988

Legally Moraz was just a 'hired gun' of course, but they promoted him as being a full band member to the public, overpaid him, then tried to phase him out...so they brought that court case upon themselves...

Moraz was apparently quite opposed to all the lighter songs re 'lost love' over dominating the music and urged they retain the 'deeper' side to The Moody Blues he'd known - but presumably under record company pressure and seeking to be more 'Radio Friendly' they - like many of their contemporaries - opted to lighten and commercialise their music...

I am certain that from 1981 Justin Hayward is VERY MUCH the 'Captain' of the 'post-Pinder' era Moodies, and John, while a sharp businessman...is his co-pilot, Ray & Graeme over time became just passengers with complimentary career long season tickets tosit back and just enjoy the flight..!

 

Thank you for the very informative post. I don't have as much knowledge as you so I cannot dispute anything you say. It is sad if things are really that bad.

 

Tot....double post

 

Totally agree, it's a long time since "Seventh Sojurn" came out what we have had since goes nowhere near the brilliance of those late 60s early 70s albums. I remember being in my local record shop the morning "Octave" was released I took it home and played it at least three times a day every day for six weeks trying to like it and that was it I've not listened to it since those six short weeks in 1978. The only time I listen to the Moody's these days is if I play the surround sound versions of the albums up to SS. Nothing post Pinder can hold a candle to those early days...

 

Octave was a Pinder album...

 

Mike Pinder was apparently unhappy with 'Octave'
- 'an album I simply didn't believe in...' he is quoted as saying

Mike played on rather more of it than later he or they credited I think, but had just the one older 1976 'Promise' era song (a highlight for me tho') 'One Step Into The Light' while he was clearly in evidence as keyboardist on the album's intro to John's 'Steppin...' plus the quite majestic instrumental conclusion to Graeme's 'I'll Be Level With You' (aka 'Little Guy') and on the two Hayward gems; 'Driftwood' / 'The Day We Meet Again' and I think he's keyboardist on John's 'Survival' too

however I don't think Mike played on all the tracks, he's probably not on 'Top Rank Suite', 'I'm Your Man', maybe not 'Under Moonshine' (none of which feature keyboards that sound very 'Moodies-ish' to me),

while Justin's 'Had To Fall in Love' was the number Mike was working on but had difficulty adding any keyboards too (there is a subliminal keyboard on it however) - this was the track that caused tempers to heat up and apparently led to a frosty exchange between Mike and Graeme !


I have heard a few things on various forums and I used to chat with a lady I knew at Threshold Records years ago which forms the basis of my 'observations' and assumptions - I'm always a bit wary of 'quotes' attributed to band members etc - plus they can often contradict themselves over the years....but we can I think at least get some kind of overall idea re events

I believe Mike Pinder was pretty exhausted and in need of a complete break by 1974 - they had struggled to complete 'Seventh Sojourn' and abandoned the follow up after recording a damn fine sounding 'working version' of Justin's superb song 'Island'

Remember Mike and Ray had been going since circa 1961-62 and they 'walked home from Germany...' once after a package tour fell through !

original Moodies bass player Clint Warwick 'couldn't stand another moonlit mile' by 1966 per author Alan Clayson in his book 'Call Up The Groups' and we know Mike wanted to concentrate on raising his family thus was the least keen to reform the band in 1978

- Justin said; 'it became clear Mike's heart wasn't really in it..'

plus I do think Mike was creatively tired out too - his two solo albums are nice but to me nothing there ranks alongside his works for The Moodies over 1967-72, I like 'One Step into The Light' on 'Octave' but I think Mike's 'Golden era' of songwriting was probably over when he packed in being a 'Moodie'

and over time the rest have also probably past their best as original composers - Justin has the odd song of note even to this day, but nothing like in his heyday, and we could see Ray's contributions fade away too

I must be honest I felt John's songs became very uneven for me after about 1983, he still penned the occasional 'Moodies-ish' one but too many of his sounded more like solo tracks - i.e. 'Rock 'n' Roll Over You', 'Love is On The Run', 'Here Comes The Weekend', etc while 'Magic' really has no 'Moodies magic' for me at all, indeed tracks on his 1977 solo album 'Natural Avenue' like; 'Summer Breeze', 'Carry Me', 'Piece of My Heart' etc, sounded far more 'Moodies' than some of his later songs recorded by the group !

I thought they were back on form for 'Strange Times' in 1999, being their first album in about eight years, tho' again not in the 'core seven' league but some worthwhile music that despite a rather dated 'keyboardy' production sound nevertheless still had it's strengths - ironic Edge's closing poem/song concludes quoting Mike Pinder;

'....and life is still A SIMPLE GAME'

was Edge telling Justin and John something there...????

 

looks like someone has deleted their reply to my post above

nevertheless I'll leave my response for general info...

While Mike Pinder had left them when the album finally came out, he nevertheless was ON it, at least on some tracks including taking the lead vocal on his own song; 'One Step into The Light'

Mike is in the group photos on 'Octave' - he's barely seen on the front cover, but he's on the end of the group line up extreme right in the inner gatefold sleeve photo, he's notably stood a little further back than the other four, and is wearing a waist length jacket, light shirt and light brown trousers and is credited by name at the bottom along with the others in black print.

check your vinyl copy of the album - and listen to the penultimate track !

group publicity photos issued by Decca included Mike in the middle of the front row in the line up - we all noticed Mike had shaved off his beard keeping just his moustache !

'Octave' was actually mostly recorded at Mike Pinder's home studio in the California hills - they relocated there after a fire at the studio (while Steve Stills was recording there) forced them to move out quick

then torrential rains caused a landslide that cut them off, producer Tony Clarke and Justin Hayward were in a car crash too....as everything went wrong !

Mike dropped out of the recording sessions after his argument with Graeme (check out the 'Classic Artists' DVD where Mike speaks of this - and publicly 'apologises' to Graeme for his upsetting him back at the 'Octave' sessions where Mike apparently got upset at Graeme's attempts to suggest ideas and barked at Edge words to the effect of; 'what do you know anyway, you're only the drummer ?' )

BUT Mike was on most of the tracks as keyboardist that already had been recorded by then, and took lead vocal on his song 'One Step into The Light' with Justin doing a close harmony vocal

Decca Records organised a big 'Moodies Are Back !' party in England...and tried to play down Mike's absence, only for the Top dignitary special guest Decca's chief Sir Edward Lewis to go and say in his speech;

'Mike Pinder's currently absent over in the States...'

much to their dismay ! LOL

 

In "The Legend Of The Band" VHS it is stated Pinder was prepared to tour for "Octave" but had a breakdown prior the first concert and it was decided at that point to go on without him.

 

Hayward played the farfisa organ on Octave's "The Day We Meet Again".

 

TDWMA was the very first track to be recorded for 'Octave' I've heard....so while Justin indeed played organ as he did other keyboards too Mike Pinder should have also played on it too

I believe Justin played some of the keyboards on Mike's song too

Ray Thomas - who has become good friends with Mike again since (Mike visited Ray a few years back) - stated that back in 1978 Mike had phoned him and agreed to do the 'Octave' tour....

...only to then apparently phone Justin a few hours later and decline to do the tour !

I don't think Mike ever got as far as preparing to do the tour - they invited Patrick Moraz to deputise as keyboardist and he joined them around September 1978 - I recall the NME paper announcing that with photos of Moraz in the line up

Graeme Edge then insisted that they were NOT 'closing the door on Pinder...'

it was mooted then that Mike might continue in the group as a studio member of the band with Patrick Moraz duly doing the tours (like Brian Wilson and Bruce Johnston in The Beach Boys)

- maybe they SHOULD have done that ???

whatever, they then did the 'Octave' tour with Moraz - a 'Live in Seattle 1979' CD has been issued of that - and then got on with quietly recording LDV - without Mike Pinder's knowledge - hence later Mike took legal action to try to stop the release of LDV - an action which Mike lost

this point Moraz lawyer brings up in that TV trial - showing how they treated a founder member of the band !

but both Mike and the band have some 'dirty washing' here and it's unfair to put ALL the blame on either side - just a great shame they could not have worked things out better....

a recent Moodies tour of the USA near Mike's home saw Mike (who once said he'd never go to see them in concert) meet up with his former band mates - there is a nice photo of Graeme, Mike, and John all smiles embracing each other, apparently all good friends again...

however there is NO such photo of Mike with Justin - is that significant ?

 

Well he also didn't complete the recording of the album. He left before it was finished.

 

I just rewatched the "Legend Of A Band" VHS. Edge said Pinder had a contract with a pen in hand to do the "Octave" tour and decided he could not sign it.

Edge: "It was that close".

 

"Captain Lodge" let the ship (or cruise liner) sink.
Losing Patrick Moraz was the end of the Moodies as a creative rock band.

 

yes in 'Legend of A Band' Graeme makes out that Mike had totally 'lost it'....

'it completely ruined Mike Pinder, it did his head in really badly...'

Graeme laments, indeed claiming Mike had the pen in hand to sign up for the tour...but he just couldn't do it...

but Ray's version is Mike phoned him to confirm his agreement...then rang Justin to decline !

who do you believe ?

Graeme's account in the LOAB DVD / VHS tape leads us to believe it was a 'Brian Wilson / Syd Barrett' type of situation re a badly 'done in' Mike Pinder

yet Mike took legal action against them soon after to prevent the release of LDV !

the later 'Classic Artists' DVD gives us a little more info re the 'Octave' period with Mike included but this time no Ray involved - in that Mike says he'd never ever go to see The Moodies in concert
- 'you don't watch your ex-wife make love.....' he says looking indignant

...but he HAS been to see them a few times since then - fans photos backstage prove it !


what was all that about; 'vast vision must improve our sight...' ?

 

Remember to bear in mind that Rock stars are about as credible as Politicians when it comes to talking to the public...!

ALL of 'em say one thing....then contradict themselves later - while another band member will 'remember' it quite differently

you will also get one minute something like;

'I couldn't work with him again even if I wanted to WHICH I NEVER WILL...and he wasn't that good anyway and hardly ever played on anything we did !!'

followed by;

'oh yes were doing a new album together and it's great to be working with such a wonderfully talented creative musician full of so many great musical ideas and such a gifted player... and soul mate ...and a dear personal friend !'

this applies to ALL artists at one point it seems, so remember to take what's said to the public as 'PR' speak !

 

I just found this online, from October 2015:

AXS: There’s been talk of some sort of celebration of the 50th anniversary of the release of Days of Future Passed coming up in 2017 that might include former Moody Blues members Mike Pinder and Ray Thomas. Any news on that?

JH: I know the basic outline of what we’re going to do, but it’s not formed yet, or who is going to be involved. Let’s try and get a bit closer to the date, because really it is 2017.

 

+Graeme Edge and even Denny Laine

 

It's not worth starting a new thread about it, but I was surfing around a minute ago to see if the Moodie's had the chart stats to justify being in the Hall of Fame, although I could care less about the Hall of Fame. I was just curious.

Anyway, I was surprised to see that their "Tuesday Afternoon" single didn't chart AT ALL.
It seems like one of their better known songs. I bought the 45 after hearing the song on WLS or WCFL in Chicago.

I had assumed that the record made the top 20 or 30 here, but I guess not.

Most people that love it must have bought the album at some point, but the single tanked.
The single was released six or seven months after the album was released in the US but only a month or two after the album was released in the UK, where the single tanked also.

 

it may depend on the chart you go by

wiki show 'Tuesday Afternoon' single made No. 26 Cashbox, No. 24 in the 'Hot' chart - is that 'Hot 100' ? also No.12 in Canada

The Moodies have had 12 UK chart singles with a No.1 'Go Now' (1965) and No. 2 'Question' (1970) while 'Nights in White Satin' has charted three times in the UK in 1967, 1972, and again in 1978


I don't think 'Tuesday Afternoon' was a UK single - my copy is a USA edit

'The Story in Your Eyes' charted in the USA but was never a UK single

wiki discography states they have had 16 Cashbox chart USA singles and 22 'Hot' chart USA singles

they have had three UK No.1 albums - 'On The Threshold of A Dream', 'A Question of Balance' and 'Every Good Boy Deserves Favor' while 'Seventh Sojourn' and 'Long Distance Voyager' made No.1 in the USA

'To Our Kids, Kids, Kids' - as Ray Thomas put it - made No. 2 in the UK and 'Days of Future Passed' made No.3 in the USA five years after it was first released in 1967...!

even 'Octave' made No.6 in the UK and No.13 in the USA going Platinum in 1978 after a five year haitus by the group


They have been awarded 18 Platinum and Gold Discs and achieved to date album sales of 70 million - per wiki

 

Nope, still cruising.

 

Yeah. I'm at work and did a quick check of the Moody Blues Wiki page and went to the discography. I didn't see that there are FOUR columns for US charts. I just took a quick look and saw the last one. At least the 45 made the top thirty here.

Wiki says "Tuesday Afternoon" was a UK single, released Jan 7th,1968

 

Maybe it was but I've never seen a UK copy - only USA single edits (sometimes of course singles releases are either cancelled or quickly withdrawn) - 'Meanwhile' in 1981 was slated to be a UK single but apparently it was never put out despite getting a catalogue number allocated

not sure if wiki is totally accurate re the whole picture worldwide - for example 'Melancholy Man' was a No.1 single in France but never a UK single (nor was 'The Story in Your Eyes' which they state was c/w 'My Song')

Justin Hayward has said they refused to allow any UK singles off EGBDF...'that was us being all artistic...but thank heavens 'Story in Your Eyes' was put out in the States'

again my single copy is a USA record

'After You Came' was later used as the 'B' side in the UK to 'Isn't Life Strange' in 1972

some worldwide album sales statistics pre 1970 may be missing too

 

A lot of "iconic albums" don't do well. Pet Sound had really bad sales compared to previous Beach Boys offerings, if I recall correctly.