Live albums w/studio overdubs

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by reechie, Jan 28, 2003.

  1. reechie

    reechie Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Someone in another topic had asked for a list of live recordings that had been overdubbed, fixed and otherwise played with in the studio. I believe it stemmed from my comments about John Fogerty's extensive vocal overdubs for his Premonition live album and DVD. It seemed a bit off topic where it was.

    At any rate, here's a few that come to mind. Also, keep in mind that this isn't meant to be a criticism of these artists for trying to make their live albums a little more perfect, more to show that it's something that most everybody does to their live albums.

    For example, Paul McCartney has said that he and Wings did numerous overdubs (mostly vocals) for the Wings Over America album in 1976. For later live albums, such as Tripping The Live Fantastic and Paul Is Live, Macca admitted that while they didn't re-do anything in the studio, they weren't above taking a segment from another performance of a song, and "flying it in" to make a more perfect version. Rumor has it that his new Back In The U.S. is completely made up of composites of each song, edited together from different performances to make up one "perfect" version.

    Anybody who had a tape of the live radio broadcast of Simon and Garfunkel's Concert in Central Park from '81 knows that when it came time for an official video and album release, they went into the studio and redid almost all of the vocal tracks. Another of those cases where the notes go on longer than the mouths are open on screen at times.

    Peter Gabriel went as far as to list credits for a "fix and mix" session for his Peter Gabriel Plays Live album.

    Michael Nesmith even went a step further, and pointed out exactly where he overdubbed some vocal and guitar fixes in the liner notes for Live At The Palais. He admitted that one of the notes he sang "just crawled out of the woodwork."

    I recall reading a quote about Eagles Live calling it (paraphrasing) "The most studio overdubbed live album in history".

    Somebody in another topic mentioned that Rob Halford recently admitted to re-doing all of Judas Priest's Unleashed In The East's vocals in the studio.

    If you remember that The Who Rocks America video tape of The Who's "farewell tour" from 81, John Entwistle re-recorded his vocals for "The Quiet One" and "Twist And Shout" in the studio. That show was also broadcast live on the radio, and the tapes reveal that Entwistle's true live vocals were a bit rough, although not as badly off key as they'd become in later years due to his hearing loss.

    Additionally, when Live At Leeds was expanded, both Entwistle and Roger Daltrey added some new vocal fixes almost thirty years after the original concert. Fans have been debating that move ever since. Now that I think of it, Peter Gabriel did the same thing for the live version of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway that's on the first Genesis Box Set, causing the same type of debate.

    I'll even throw in that Pat DiNizio re-cut vocals in the studio for the Smithereens Live EP. The same show was run on MTV back in '86 or so, and clearly the vocals are much more rough, as though Pat were having some throat problems that night.

    I remember a mid-80's Paul Carrack MTV concert where they vocals were clearly re-done in the studio. During the performance, Carrack would comment on having throat problems that night, to the point where he handed over a few songs to his bass player, who happened to be Nick Lowe, and even cut the show short. During all of this, the vocals sounded just fine, but during the last song, the jig was up: On screen, Carrack's mouth was closed, yet not only did the singing continue, but you could hear an audible "Whoops" out of Carrack as he realized he wasn't singing onscreen at that point.

    Those are the ones that I could think of at the moment. Anyone else?
     
  2. mcow1

    mcow1 Sommelier Gort

    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Pick just about any Zappa live album.
     
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  3. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    Pick just about EVERY live album.
     
  4. tim_neely

    tim_neely Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Central VA
    Frampton Comes Alive! has been described as an album with so many fixes that it's virtually a studio album with a live audience overdubbed onto it.
     
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  5. reechie

    reechie Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Zappa would go as far as to take live bass and drum tracks with audience noise, and build a whole new song out of them in the studio.

    Were there vocal or otherwise fixes for The Kinks Live At Kelvin Hall? Sounds like a few vocals sound muddy and live, others come in clear and with a different ambience.
     
  6. tim_neely

    tim_neely Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Central VA
    Absolutely. The one exception I can think of off the top of my head, not including archival releases from years after the fact, is the Doors' Absolutely Live double vinyl from 1970, which claimed in its liner notes that no studio overdubs were present. I can't vouch for the veracity of that statement, though.
     
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  7. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    And the Beatles Hollywood Bowl.

    But most every modern live album is "fixed".
     
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  8. reechie

    reechie Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Dire Straits' Alchemy claimed no overdubs in the liner notes.
     
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  9. GuyDon

    GuyDon Senior Member


    So very true. Obviously, money drives these releases but I find it such a fraud to release a "live" document that is actually overdubbed. Give it to me warts and all.
     
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  10. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    See how they have to mention it wasn't overdubed. It's like they're making a big deal out of it. It's too bad.
     
  11. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    I think it can be safely said that Husker Du's LAND SPEED RECORD has no overdubs of any kind; it is what it is, which is great performance, lousy, bootleggish sound. Also, beyond whatever Eq adjustments were made for the Dylan 'Albert Hall' album, that sounds authentic and undubbed, too.
    There are probably a lot, but overall, Jamie is right: you're hard pressed to list any live album that isn't tweaked to some degree. Some are upfront and honest about it: even if you didn't see STOP MAKING SENSE visually, the Lp's liner ntoes spell out that post-production tweaking was done, and since they had three nights' worth of takes to work with, it's obvious they did that composite work to maximize impact and minimize mistakes.

    Remember the old STEVIE NICKS LIVE AT RED ROCKS VHS/laser? That one has credits near the very end that mentions 'post-production' work. Fans guess most of that was Stevie later redoing many of her vocals; according to some who were there that night, her voice was kind of ragged, and she didn't always hit the right notes or come into the songs at just the right time.

    Still, such albums being a 'fraud' doesn't negate their greatness, when they are great. JB's APOLLO albums have more than a canned audience going on; some of it is just too slick to be even considered 'live,' yet the '63 Lp is one of the most exciting slabs of vinyl you'll ever hear.

    Another album that sounds 'honest' is DONOVAN IN CONCERT; the sound isn't brilliant, and there's no hint anything was added. ABSOLUTELY LIVE is probably honest, too: the Doors were a damned good band, if not always tight, depending on how wayward Morrison's spirit was on any given night.
    Roy O's A BLACK AND WHITE NIGHT I'm very unsure about, though; the whole thing, from the busy visual editing to the near-perfection of the mix suggests some kind of post-pro additions, though I'm not sure just what songs or whom was involved. Either that, or it was a PERFECT Black & White Night, since there's almost nothing out of place, from vocals to just the right guitar line or backing vocal harmonies.

    ED:cool:
     
  12. MikeT

    MikeT Prior Forum Cretin and Current Impatient Creep

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    The Grateful Dead "Europe '72" has a lot of the vocal parts overdubbed (and possibly a few other "fixes").
     
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  13. reechie

    reechie Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Baltimore
    I also recall a credit for a director of "Close-Ups" for that video. She went back after the show, had her hair and make-up fixed, and reshot a bunch of close-up footage. I always found that a bit interesting. You have to admit though, Stevie looked great in that show.


    That one, I think, is pretty geniune. Sure it's slick, and there was probably some post production done, but there are enough flaws here and there to indicate that it wasn't mucked around with too much. For example, Tom Waits' meltdown at the keyboard during "Ooby Dooby", and even Roy's voice cracking during the last note of "Running Scared" None of which takes away from a truly majestic concert video.

    Remember that being a TV concert, it wasn't necessarily played the way you see it on the DVD. I know for a fact, from reading an article about Roy at the time, that they did at least one other take of "The Comedians", because Roy forgot the words. They probably shot several versions of some songs, and used the ones that worked best for the finished product.
     
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  14. Robb

    Robb Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    Gentle Giant's live album Playing the Fool claims no overdubs (au natural) in the liner notes. I believe it, it sounds sonically very honest and concert-like to me, compared to other live albums.

    Truly great music, musicianship and arranging. It's my favorite live rock album of all.

    Does anyone know if the original Cheap Trick Live at Budokan is all live, with no overdubs?

    Robert
     
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  15. ArneW

    ArneW Senior Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Seems like this has been a common practice since the 50s. One that comes to my mind immediately is the Tony Bennett/Count Basie "in person" album. There's not a single live track on this one. The original live recording is sitting on a shelf somewhere - what has been released is a complete studio album with applause edited in.

    Arne
     
  16. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    The Beach Boys "Concert" Lp, recorded in Sacremento in 1964 had EXTENSIVE overdubs, to the point of whole songs being replaced.
    "I Get Around" was one of them. They actually stuck the 45 master in there and overdubbed crown noise. For othet songs, they totally re-recorded them live in the studio to correct mistakes. I never knew how much of that Lp was overdubs.


    The Sea of Tunes series has a disk that HAS all the overdubs, right off the session masters.

    Pretty amazing how a group that talented had so many problems playing "live".
     
  17. Claus

    Claus Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    One of the best live records... one of my all-time faves: Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous.

    It doesn't sound like a re-recording, but producer Tony Visconti insisted to record some guitar and vocal-overdubs in the studio.

    One one the worst: Deep Purple's Nobody's perfect. They recorded the tracks and changed the solos from anothe show later...
     
  18. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    The Johnny rivers "And I Know You Wanna Dance" Lp, the one with "Secret Agent Man", was a faked live Lp.

    They just invited a bunch of people over to hear the studio tapes and recorded their clapping and comments.

    As they (Liberty) had a habit of doing!!
     
  19. reechie

    reechie Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Wasn't the opening "Fun Fun Fun" also the studio version with a few instruments dropped? It sure sounds close, and that edit to add a cold ending is absolutely horrible!
     
  20. reechie

    reechie Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Didn't they do most of Rivers' "live" albums that way? I have a JR best-of that has the hit version of "Memphis" without the crowd noise overdubbed at the end.
     
  21. metalbob

    metalbob Senior Member

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thin Lizzy - Live and Dangerous - in the Phil Lynott book, it states that about 75% is actually live. I hear rumors to the contrary.

    Cheap Trick - Live At Budokan - In a Cheap Trick book, Rick is quoted as saying it is almost entirely live and they go as far to say that other bands can't do it as "live" as they can.

    KI$$ Alive 1 & 2 - I have no idea what's real and what isn't with KI$$. There is a legendary story that KI$$ was borrowing equipment from another famous artist in the next studio next door to record their live album. I think the famous artist was Frampton, but not sure. I think Alive 2 might even be overdubbed with a different guitarist that Ace Frehley! I think Paul Stanley's famous quote is, "it's as live as it needs to be".

    Grand Funk Live 1971 - just released. It says Pro-Tools editor inside the credits. That makes me SCARED that vocals may have been bent into shape on a computer screen. Mark Farner sounds great. Maybe too great....Maybe pieces were edited in from other spots in the songs?

    Rollins Band - The Only Way To Know For Sure - recorded on two nights in Chicago. He claims it was recorded and mixed in analog with NO overdubs. Pretty raw. Rollins has other band CDs out that are taken direct from DAT soundboard tapes. Both lineups of his band are slammin'!

    Black Sabbath - Past Lives - Part of this was taken from Live at Last, which I don't own. Ozzy sounds pretty good on this and I wonder if Sharon stepped in with a Pro-Tools editor to fix it from any multi-tracks that may exist.

    Led Zeppelin - Song Remains the Same - A friend said it could be a sync problem, but I occasionally see Robert's mouth go out of sync with the vocals.

    Van Halen - Live without a Net - I remember them claiming that the entire thing was live except for a bassline they needed to fix because of a mike that was knocked over or something.

    I can't figure out how they can record vocals etc. and have them
    sound "live" with all the ambience matching the original room. Even before digital reverb etc. As sad as it is to say, with Pro-Tools, they can at least take a real performance and fix vocals that are actually from the show instead of bad overdubs, especially ones that don't sync with video! I would get the Stones HBO special on video before they fix anything!
     
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  22. danstone

    danstone Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington State
    Both Slayer's Live: A Decade Of Agression and L7's Live: Omaha To Osaka claim to have no overdubs. In these two cases I think they are indeed being accurate as the results aren't pretty at times (especially with the L7 album).
     
  23. jamesmaya

    jamesmaya Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Another live album that was also sweetened in the studio: CSNY's 4-Way Street.
     
  24. Mike Dow

    Mike Dow I kind of like the music

    Location:
    Bangor, Maine
    Reechie--your post was loaded with info that I had not heard or read before. Thanks for posting this! I always enjoy reading your posts.
     
  25. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    At least half of James Brown's "Sex Machine" double-LP (all of the tracks with the original JBs line-up with Bootsy & Catfish Collins) is a studio album with audience overdubs and added reverb. The de-futzed versions of these tracks have since been released on various collections such as "Funk Power 1970" and "In the Jungle Groove".

    Regards,
     
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