Moving Coil Vs. Moving Magnet

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by jeffrey walsh, Apr 4, 2011.

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  1. jeffrey walsh

    jeffrey walsh Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Scranton, Pa. USA
    Clearaudio's Emotion and the Roksan 5 are two.
     
  2. drbryant

    drbryant Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    If you like the Clearaudio Emotion SE, I think that it comes with one of Clearaudio's very highly regarded high end MM cartridges, in the $600-$800 range. I have used both Clearaudio MM and MC cartridges, and have been very pleased. Two disadvantages with the design - (i) those wires can be a little tricky to connect, so you have to be extremely patient so that you don't risk tearing the wires; and (ii) the cantilever on the cartridge really juts out, and you need to be very careful not to damage it. I have heard of people catching a cantilever on the sleeve of their bathrobe, etc. Otherwise, reviews in general are very good.
     
  3. BaMorin

    BaMorin New Member

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    That is incorrect. It is a piece of flat non-permeable iron that sits in a gap between the front magnet, and the magnets the coils are wrapped around. As that flat disk moves, it varies the flux fields. (push-pull) As a magnet nears a coil, voltage rises in the coil, as a coil nears a magnet voltage rises in the coil.
    The coils in a Grado cart are under full flux at all times. the "flux bridger" system adds to or subtracts from that full field. Electrically the coils being of low resistance and low inductance react to impedance/frequency more like a MC. The Statement series of Grado have even lower internal DC resistance and inductance than a majority of MCs.......The MI principle that Grado employs is it's own generation system. It is neither a MC in principle, or a MM in principle. Before the implimentation of the "Z-line transmission" in the late 80's the MI grado principle was closer to Veriable Reluctance. Such as the pick-ups of my Les Paul
     
  4. Can't say I agree. The only advantage I see of the MM is the flatter frequency response.

    Certainly no one would call a Grado wood-body "unmusical".
    In fact, I thought the improved articulation alone justified the upgrade.
    Better articulation, better macro- and micro-dynamics.
     
  5. ktc1

    ktc1 New Member

    Location:
    Dundee, IL, USA
    I don't know the seller or anything about the table, but if you like the Roksan 5 there is one packaged with a Dynavector 20XL (low output MC) and P75 mk2 phono stage on AudiogoN for $2,200. This is a very good cartridge and phono stage combo and the phono stage should be a significant upgrade over the one in your Sherwood; I used to have a 20X cartridge with a P75 on a VPI scout and it was excellent.

    Add an RCM and your in business.
     
  6. jeffrey walsh

    jeffrey walsh Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Scranton, Pa. USA
    Sorry but meant the Clearaudio Performance series. Been looking at so many lately it's getting confusing. :wave:
     
  7. jeffrey walsh

    jeffrey walsh Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Scranton, Pa. USA
    That Roksan table appears to be a older model. Needle Doctor has the one I'be been checking out.
     
  8. MikeyH

    MikeyH Stamper King

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    When I went through my box of old carts, many years ago, I was quite surprised at the differences in musicality. Some were relatively enjoyable, others sterile and dull. Not a frequency response thing.

    Most curious were the Shure range and the A-T range. Despite having 'family' designs, some of these were nice to listen to and some weren't. Little correlation to cost or age (except the more expensive a-t tended to better the others).

    I've always found MC carts to be more enjoyable, particularly in the dynamics and frequency extremes bass and mid/treble. But they do take more care and feeding.

    If you really want fun, combined with irritation, get a Decca London... Truly great yet still flawed sometimes.
     
    Heckto35 likes this.
  9. vinylkid58

    vinylkid58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Victoria, B.C.
    Which ones?

    jeff
     
  10. zongo

    zongo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Davis, CA
    A lot of great advice and experience in this thread. I do feel that an essential part of the difference in using an MC versus an MM has not been really emphasized as it should be. The output of the MC is incredibly miniscule compared with the output of the MM. This means that with the MC, you need to make sure that your pre-amp or head-amp is up to the job and is really nice quality, or you are not going to get the sound you could out of the cartridge. Simply put, if you don't have enough gain, you are going to have a lot of hiss or often the sound can be thin or uninvolving if the quality of your electronics is not really good with an MC. I think it's a lot easier to get decent sound out of an MM with moderately high end electronics.

    I do think there are some very good MM's out there as well. I used one of the around $600 Clearaudios for years and thought it was really quite enjoyable when set up well. However, I have to count myself in the group that really doesn't like the Grados: I've never tried one of the really high end ones, but I've tried a couple of the middling ones and thought they had poor resolution and were pretty boring. The last few years I have been using really low-output MCs and like them a lot (and no, I don't agree that MCs are too bright as a rule).
     
  11. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All

    Location:
    New York
    Agree on the V15VMR. When properly dialed in, as you say, it's a great performer.
     
  12. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    I don't find better MCs "too bright" myself, though that could be a matter of taste. I suspect, however, that it is more a matter of matching components and set up. If I were to just drop certain other cartridges into my system, they could sound either "too bright" or excessively dull. I would expect to have to make some accomodations. That would not only mean doing things like adjusting loading, but, it may even mean changing certain components. Realistically, for me, that would mean first changing the tubes in my phonostage. The choice of 12AX7 tubes in my phonostage make a BIG difference in the sound. I would then consider a change of interconnect. Beyond that, I cannot see upsetting any of the other downstream components which are also chosen to sound good with my digital source.

    There are plenty of MC cartridges that sound considerably less bright than other MC cartridges. If one finds most MC too bright, perhaps something from the less bright camp would work--Koetsu or Allaerte, for example.

    I am surprised that some find MC performance to be generally dull compared to MM (unless my choice of MM were a Decca London). I tend to find the clear, fast attack and dynamic explosiveness of better MCs make them exciting (if someone mentioned fatiguing, that would be more understandable). I would only find a better MC dull, if there was an adjustment/setup issue or if I equated thumping bass with excitement.

    Another issue of MC vs. MM is that most of the better performing MC are a LOT more expensive than the top MM cartridges. So, if one compares cartridges at the same price level, then one could be comparing a top level MM with a lower level MC. I would then agree that there is a lot to like in the better MM.

    In the final analysis, I am sure there are a lot of people who do actually prefer certain MM cartridges over ANY MC cartridge. I just think that unless one hears a wide range of alternatives and seriously auditions both types, and make the effort to optimize the performance of any candidate, it is too easy to pass over something that would be your holy grail.
     
    Heckto35 and Shiver like this.
  13. Robin L

    Robin L Musical Omnivore

    Location:
    Fresno, California
    My Shure 97xe [stock] set-up borders on 'bright' thanks to the tonearm and the use of low capacitance/resistance interconnect to the phono stage of my amp. The phono stage plays a very large role in the final result as well. Tube phono stages, in my experience, have fewer of the typical LP distortions such as distortion on peaks and obnoxious levels of surface noise. For whatever reason, the Scott 299b produces more of the music and less of the noise.
     
  14. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    VERY WELL SAID. That's pretty much my take on it as well. I've been using MC carts almost exclusively for many years now. I do have a Mm on my table at the moment though! As with most everyone, I started out with Shure and AT MM cartridges. I then bought a Denon MC unit and never looked back. Since, I've had much nicer MC cartridges in my systems than the Denons, which I did find to sound a little bright. The price of a really good MC system is high enough that most listeners might never have even heard one let alone buy one. Still, they offer very high quality playback and I'm generally more impressed with the sound over MM.
    -Bill
     
  15. Baz P

    Baz P Active Member

  16. HiFi Guy 008

    HiFi Guy 008 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
  17. floweringtoilet

    floweringtoilet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warren, RI, USA
    It is a modified Grado. I've never heard one, but the MM has gotten tons of great reviews over the years.
     
  18. Baz P

    Baz P Active Member

    I think the only Grado connection is the shell - the rest has been ditched. They must be different as I've never heard, or heard any review mention, hum :)
     
  19. BaMorin

    BaMorin New Member

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    You can see in the photos that he has added a sheilded case with a ground strap.
     
  20. Steven Level

    Steven Level New Member

    Hi, I'm new to this forum and thought I would add my 2 cents worth on the MM vs. MC cartridge debate: I have a new Shure M97XE that I just bought for my vintage Pioneer turntable that's in mint condition to get back into vinyl again.

    I also bought a used Ortofon MC-10 Moving Coil cartridge as my first Moving Coil cartridge to see how much of a difference I could hear.

    I own a mint condition Carver C-1 preamp that was designed with two good phono stages by Mr. Carver who's a genius with audio. I can honestly say that the low output Ortofon MC cartridge is much better at tracking all my vinyl records. It also has a better overall dynamic range with the Carver C-1 preamp. So no separate expensive phono stage was needed. I realize most people tend to buy new audio equipment. I have a very nice 6.1 surround sound setup with a nice Yamaha receiver to do all the work for movies.
    However, when it comes to music I could tell I was missing out on that old analog sound and of course those vinyl records that have been making a huge comeback. So finding a Carver C-1 preamp in mint condition became a mission. I found one from the original owner in mint condition and it's just fantastic. Shure there are better preamps on the market today for a lot more money, but I'm on a budget and found the Carver C-1 to be a great preamp for it's MM and MC phono stages but also for CD and .flac audio playback via it's 2 AUX inputs.
    I was used to the Shure MM cartridge since I had one back in 1980 to 1984 and I thought it was very good. So I simply replaced it with a new M97 sold on Amazon and thought that would be it.

    I then purchased a used Ortofon Low Output Moving Coil cartridge and was blown away by the overall difference. I had been missing out on the good sound that you can get from L.P.s with a average MC cartridge like this Ortofon.
    It not only tracks much better through out the album, but the inner tracks sound much better than with my M97 MM cartridge.

    Now that I can hear the difference I'm sold on the MC platform. I have the M97 as backup and the only disadvantage of a MC is the lack of a replacement stylus. Sure you can get them replaced if it's worth it. My used Ortofon is not worth having the stylus replaced and will be tossed after it wears out. It did only cost me $90 used so I'll end up buying a barely used or NOS MC cartridge when I need a replacement.

    A Moving Coil cartridge will give you a better high end, no doubt about that and it will play the inner tracks that my Shure M97 had trouble with without any issues at all. The overall sound is just better! If you have bright speakers you can always use the tone controls to quite the high end a little bit. My Carver C-1 is fantastic for the cost and with a max Signal To Noise Raito of only 96 DB it's somewhat limited compared to newer preamps.

    I have however compared it to newer preamps including the new Onkyo integrated amp and a older Yamaha as well. Both of these were either sold back on Ebay of returned as I found that the Carver C-1 had a perfect sound to it. No added coloration and a very flat frequency response and low T.H.D. of .04%. I guess if you spend less on your equipment you can afford a better cartridge for your turntable.

    Personally, I have a very average turntable and spending over $1000 on a turntable is neer going to happen for me. I simply can't afford to spend that much on a new turntable.

    So buying the good old vintage equipment is how I can get a good MC phono stage that will not just amplify noise. MC phono stages have been very hard to design for that very reason. Mr. Carver was able to design a nice MC phono stage built into the C-1 preamp that is well above some of the MC separate phono stages I have heard that cost 3 times what I paid for the C-1 preamp from 1982. For only $325 I was able to get a single owned well kept C-1 preamp and unless you knew it was built back in 1982 you would think it was brand new!

    My Dad always taught me that you should allocate 2/3 of your monies of your sound setup toward your speakers. He was not the audio nut that I am and he never even tried a Moving Coil cartridge. His loss and his mistake because there is no doubt in my mind that Moving Coil cartridges are far better than all but the best moving magnet cartridges. Just my humble opinion after over 35 years of really loving music. I'm also a research fanatic! I love to learn about new things and research is half the fun before buying something expensive.

    My modest all analog system: Carver TX-2 Tuner, Carver C-1 Preamp, Carver TL-3200 CD player, Onkyo 7030 CD player, Pioneer PL-7 with two cartridge mount sleeves, ShureM97XEMM, Ortofon MC-10 MC, Adcom ACE 515 Line Conditioner/Surge protector, and a Hafler DH-500 amplifier. Speakers: Definitive Studio Monitor 450's and twin SVS 1000 12" powered subwoofers for both a 6.1 surround sound setup and a 2.2 all analog music only setup.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
    Heckto35 likes this.
  21. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    I have to say that since my Ortofon Quintet Bronze has broken in I'm blown away by the detail I'm getting. The frequency response does have the slight brightness that many experience with moving coil carts.
     
  22. reeler

    reeler Forum Resident

    I have/use both. Over the weekend I briefly compared MM (Rega Exact), MI (Grado Gold) and MC (Denon 110). The Grado is warm and a bit soft and difuse plus exhibited tracking distortion sometimes. The Denon was quicker, brighter and leaner and more detailed. The Rega was in between. I wound up leaving the Rega on. Before that I had been using the Grado. I rarely leave the Denon on long, so I guess I'm mostly an MI, MM liker.
     
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  23. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    I'm a Rega Exact 2 user for what it is worth.
     
  24. nahoo

    nahoo New Member

    Sorry if I am asking a silly question, but I cannot view your profile (I get a permission error). Which TT are you using? I was also thinking about getting this cartridge but I didn't know how well it matches with pro-ject arms. At the end I got a Sumiko BPS.
     
  25. reeler

    reeler Forum Resident

    Yes Its a rebuilt Grado, just like a Soundsmith is a B&O. Both are moving iron I think. Alternatively you could have Expert stylus or Soundsmith (among others) retip and/or recantilever your Grado for much less money. I expect that's a good lot of the difference between a stock Grado and a "Cartridge man" Grado. One could also try the long known "Longhorn Mod" to your Grado.
     
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