Moving Coil Vs. Moving Magnet

My current table is a Pro-Ject Perspex with a 9cc Evolution tonearm. I started with a Sumiko BPS. I liked it, but I found that it did show some inner groove distortion. The Ortofon Quintet Bronze has exactly the same mass and compliance numbers as the Sumiko BPS, so it's as good a match.

Overall, I would say that the Quintet Bronze is an upgrade, with the caveat that it definitely shows defects and damage in vinyl as well as it shows the good stuff.

 

Thank you.

I am using the BPS in a xpression and although I also like it the inner groove distortion also annoys me. I'm still thinking what to do, but my feeling is that the quintet bronze is too good for the xpression.

 

Excellent post and welcome to the forum.

I think what you're experiencing there is not so much the difference between MM and MC cartridges but the difference between two very unalike cartridges, one of which just happens to be an MM and the other of which just happens to be an MC! The Shure M97xE has a very rolled-off frequency response and its elliptical stylus has come in for a lot of criticism on this forum and elsewhere for poor tracking. I don't know precisely which Ortofon model you have but the chances are that its frequency response is brighter than that of the M97xE, giving it a much more lively and engaging sound, and I would also expect it to have a stylus that tracks much better than that of the M97xE. But to repeat, neither of those factors are necessarily anything to do with MM vs. MC. For example, instead of buying the Ortofon, you could have bought an MM cartridge such as the AT440MLa or the AT150MLx. Either of these would have given you awesome tracking - far better than that of the M97xE or even, I'd expect, the Ortofon - and would also have given you a much brighter frequency response than the M97xE.

So, yes. MC cartridges certainly have their advantages but let's not write off the poor old MMs just yet!

 

Indeed. My reference cartridge for many years has been the Stanton 681 EEE-S II or the Pickering XV 15/1000, The best flat response of any MI or MM and excellent tracking, alas no longer made. More rugged than the Shures.

 

I used mc carts for years but now back to mm. Apples/pears.

 

I've used a lot of higher end mc cartridges throughout the years. Koetsu Black, Madrigal Carnegie One, Ortofon Jubilee, Dynavector XX2, Audio Technica 33 PTG, Denon 103r in a potted ebony wooden body, ZU audio 103 and a some I can't remember. All of these were low output using a set of Cinemag transformers through a variety of phono stages. They all sounded great for short listening sessions, but got fatiguing after a longer period of listening.

What I'm using now is a $19 used Sumiko Pearl body, which is the same body as a Shelter 201. I also have a Jico SAS MM1 cartridge which is now discontinued, and amazing by the way. I found out thru the magic of the interweb that the Jico stylus on my MM1 cartridge will fit the Sumiko. I found a combination of the SAS Stylus 1 ($120) and Pearl engine that's hard to beat to my ears, especially at this price. I can listen to this combination for hours and still want more.

I need to add that my financial status has not changed, so that isn't the reason for liking the current system.

 

I have both I like both but the MC does sound better plain and simple, it also cost more!!!

 

Let's not forget the difference between tracking and TRACING. I learned this from Peter at Soundsmith. Tracing means greater detail.

 

I sometimes think with vinyl nostalgia plays a factor-a lot of people "returning" to vinyl remember their youth when vinyl ruled and they listened to rock-MM may convey this better. I swear I read an argument somewhere were the writer stated MM was more musical,but I can't find it now.

 

I picked up a SAS STYLUS-1 for my Shelter 201 body but haven't swapped the cart with the Ortofon I'm currently using. This post is making me think I need to get on that!

 

I think you'll be surprised , in a good way.

 

I have two Turntables in my system. One with a Denon DL-103r (MC)and the other has a AT-150MX (MM). One is not better than the other, they are just different . The MM is bouncy and the MC is smooth warm. I consider myself lucky! I get to pick the cartridge type based on mood.

 

I have a similar setup (AT440 and DL110), the AT tracks better and I use it on records that have surface noise, the Denon is more "musical", but only sounds
great with records that are in mint condition. Nice to have carts that can "handle the job"...

 

I think the MC, by design (the moving coil) has the ability to be more "musical".

 

I just wanted to follow up on this.

My table: Pro-Ject Perspex with a 9cc Evolution tonearm (8 grams effective mass).

This just didn't work for me. Unlike a lot of other Jico SAS replacement styli, this one does not have a stabilizer (a.k.a. "brush"). And it would seem the compliance of the stylus is really high (someone here estimates 35!) On some vinyl, the tonearm would begin to oscillate laterally and in some cases actually come out of the groove.

So I can't recommend this on anything other than a very low mass tonearm. For what it's worth, on vinyl that didn't have the resonance issue, it sounded just wonderful! Very detailed with not even a hint of harsh brightness.

 

It is my belief that MM carts have more of a sonic signature. Perhaps that is why some people say they are more "musical". People have different ideas on what "musical" means.

 

Sheffield labs/Stanton 881s




Article



Small correction: Stanton 881s mk1, (stereohedron, pentamet), and not 881 mkII, (simply elliptic).


Direct comparison to mc

 

The people on the link you provided are talking about the SAS stylus for Shure, which is a different stylus altogether.

The Jico SAS replacement stylus' with brushes, are for the shure cartridges only. My SME 345 has an effective mass of 11-12g and mine tracks fantastic. The compliance is 20 x 10-6 cm/dyne, documented directly from Jico's site.

I don't know what the problem is with yours, but it's the first time I've heard of any negative tracking with this stylus. I would say they sent a faulty stylus or there is a major setup problem, because these are known to work on multiple arms.

I looked up you're combo on the resonance calculator, and it should match yours nicely.

 

I have heard a bunch of MC on a bunch of systems at demo's and shows. It never makes me say to myself "wow I'm missing out, I need one of those ". Shure V15 MKIV with SAS - I'm still looking for where the resolution of this combo ends. I havn't found it yet. Every upgrade I do around my Shure gets more and more music.

 

I saw that too, but I'm not convinced that "20" is correct. I have an Ortofon 2M Bronze (which has a compliance number of 22) but that cantilever is nowhere near as wispy and supple as the Jico. In that thread, there seems to be some consensus that all Jico cantilevers have roughly the same compliance. What I witnessed was a classic presentation of resonance due to a compliance mismatch with the tonearm. Don't get me wrong, I want it to work.

 

I think you can enjoy both.
I also do not accept that MC and MMs have a particular sound.That relates more to frequency response than type.
A good MM cartridge with a flat frequency response will sound quite like an MC cartridge with a flat response.An MC with a rising treble ,which is typical ,probably will sound better than a MM with a similar response.Somehow better MCs like the Lyras can get away with that without sounding excessively bright.
If you compare a MM cartridge like the Nagaoka MP500 or Ortofon 2M Black which have flat frequency responses and similar cantilever and stylus profile to a MC cartridge with a flat response the differences are not that great.

A comparison of MC and MM cartridges run through an equaliser that gave them identical frequency responses would be be very interesting.

 

Too bad it didn't work for you, it is a great combo. Just curious, what vtf were you using?

I may come off a little passionate, but it's due to the fact that I've found a combination that I can listen to for hours. Not so with the $1000's of cartridges I've gone through until I found the Jico MM1, then the SAS stylus 1 on a Pearl body. And I've owned some expensive mc's. That said I've had some real mismatched cartridge/ arms and I've never experienced the "dance". Lucky I guess.

Since my tonearm effective mass is higher than yours, I don't want anyone to think that it needs a light effective mass tonearm to make it work.

 

long but interesting-http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&3510&4
he used NOS MM's and liked 'em better tan new MC-
"I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance" and-
"The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!"
grist for the mill...

 

I suspect that SME arm is benefiting from some damping that my Pro-Ject arm lacks.

 

100k load will sound dynamic and involving for a bit, but too bright also.