Moving Coil Vs. Moving Magnet

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by jeffrey walsh, Apr 4, 2011.

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  1. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    In my experience one TechDAS dealer said it best- the best MM cartridges aren't lacking in detail, frequency response, or any of the areas that hifi rags focus on. But they lack the nuance and ability to step into a performance. I doubt the best MM vs a good MC would matter much for rock music, but for unamplified acoustic music in my experience I will take a good moving coil every day. Something as "cheap" as a Zyx R50 Bloom (~ $800 new) was better than every single MM I've heard. That cartridge with something well recorded/mastered like the original pressing of Prince Lasha's The Cry I'm at a loss to describe it.
     
  2. I'm just waiting for the day when a MC blows me away. An early preamp shoot out I did was with a nice Denon TT brought into Kevin Gray's studio. Don't know what kind of MC cart was used, but the same TT was run with both MM and MC into basically a Chinook preamp. I didn't notice any jaw dropping changes; and this was with classical acoustic material as well as pop material and some of Kevin's test pressings. What did happen in this session was the beginning of cementing my realization that remasters sourced from digital files really lack the top end that breathes life into a recording.

    I know you guys probably get tired of hearing this. But you have to ask yourself: Why would a 60 year old guy, who has held no other job than mastering since the age of 18 years old, not have a MC system in his mastering studio to check playback?
     
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  3. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    First of all let me say that I have a great deal of respect for both your and Kevin's opinions in such matters.

    But there is a great deal of nuance and history implied in the answer to that question. Or in other words, the answer is not as simple as, "he doesn't think it's any better".

    Experience with audio gear has taught me that "synergy" is a real thing, and I'm certain that some systems will "like" moving coil better than moving magnet (or "iron") carts and vice-versa.
     
  4. He's probably using a MM cart because that's the type of cart that most people will be using when they listen to the records he's mastered.
     
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  5. I can ask him again. But as I recall, he uses Shure because he says they are flat.
     
  6. that's a good reason too.
     
    morinix likes this.
  7. That's fine. I'm just saying that I havn't heard anything that proved truly infectious. I've listened, quite a bit, at the Bob's devices booth at THE Show in 2014 and 2013. I also spent nearly an hour in the Zu room at THE show 2014. Those are just two more extended listening examples I can recall right now. Maybe it is just deep psycho-acoustic alignments on my part that cause an immunity to MC in me. Dunno :shrug:
     
  8. BTW I have never played around with MC on my own. I plan on doing this later this year. Who knows? I may become a MC freak in 2015. :laugh::shh::winkgrin:
     
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  9. I use both: Denon DL-110 HOMC for my stereo turntable & Shure Premier w/Jico stylus on my mono turntable. I have no idea why they do what they do, but they do it so well I just sit back & enjoy the music. Perhaps it's because the Denon throws a HUGE stereo soundstage & the Shure gives the mono LPs a realistic vocal spookiness, especially with old Elvis & Beatles records. They both work great, so I'm happy.
     
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  10. octaneTom

    octaneTom Man of Leisure

    I recently bought my first LOMC - a Dynavector 20x2L and it is definitely better in my system than my AT150MLX MM was. I'm getting more bass, midbass (and maybe better 'separation' but that's probably a weird and debatable adjective) and it's a lot quieter on the pop/click side of things than the 150MLX was. Perhaps the 150MLX was worn out or wasn't as great as I thought it was for the past few years? I bought it used and had it for a while, so I'm not 100% sure, but the difference is a noticeable improvement in my system.
     
  11. My 150MLX is very quiet. I'm on the third stylus for it. It did start to get noisier when the stylus had around 1000-1500 hrs. on it.
     
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  12. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    I for one am waiting for multi-gain switch version of the Lounge :goodie:
     
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  13. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    IMO I wouldn't use show conditions to judge something as minute as cartridge differences, and especially not on Zu speakers (again IMO I dislike them; peaky, odd frequency balance, etc).

    I can understand that KG uses a Shure V15, like I said there is nothing technically wrong with the best MM cartridges. And I'm sure it's a great tool to assess his work.

    Anyway I didn't mean to firmly plant myself in the MC camp. I am always open to trying new things (currently using MI and very interested in hearing Dave Slagle's strain gauge).
     
    morinix likes this.
  14. telefunken77

    telefunken77 Active Member

    Dumb ?-do MC "dig" into the grooves more? I heard them described as "groove grinders" once.(?)
     
  15. octaneTom

    octaneTom Man of Leisure

    I think it has more to do with the stylus shape/size than the type of cartridge.
     
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  16. Shak Cohen

    Shak Cohen Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    A good way of (kind of) sampling both worlds would be to get an AT11/VM8, an old Audio Technica cartridge. If you fit it with an ATS11e you have yourself a crisp, dynamic MM with a freq. response of 15-25k. Get a ATS12s shibata stylus for it, and it becomes a 5-45k smooth, wide, open, sweet cartridge with a spec and sound that resemble Moving Coils.
     
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  17. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Seems to be a perpetual, unresolvable and almost religious battle that goes on over the whole MM/MC thing. I think it's perfectly possible to make -- and many manufacturers have made -- excellent sounding carts of both types. Issues of frequency balance, compliance and mass matching, how well the cartridge suspension damps and controls resonances, stylus shape, etc. are all more important than whether or not a cart is of one type or the other in terms of the sound you actually achieve.

    The big difference is in loading and gain. With their higher inductance, MM's take greater care in loading to avoid a hump in the frequency response in the 10kHz region (and a roll off above that) but obviously require a lot less gain (usually meaning lower electronic noise); LOMCs, with their low inductance, don't face the same loading issue but need more gain (which can and usually does mean more electronic noise). To me that's about it when it comes to any absolutes about the inherent differences between MM's and MC's. After that it's more about the specific individual cartridge and the mechanical and electronic matching of cart, arm and preamp than it is about the cartridge type.
     
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  18. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Personally I like to look apon the stylus/cartridge/tonearm as one unit. I believe the reason for the different views on how certain cartridges sound is very much down to the tonearm. How many have in reality heard how a cartridge how it can sound if everything else is being optimized. Naturally this will yield a very different view. Get rid of all vibrations and resonances and many will sound very, very good, that is my experience. Never mind if MM or MC.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
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  19. Hellenic_Vanagon

    Hellenic_Vanagon New Member

    Location:
    Greece
    STANTON 881S PROFFESIONAL CALIBRATION STANDARD, by CBS

    In September of the year 2012, this advertisement appeared on ebay: (not existing anymore)

    "This cartridge, which was mounted in an SME Shell, came from the listening studios at CBS Laboratories. I was in charge of the studio. The cartridge was used very little, perhaps no more than a few hours. We just measured the performance, listened to a few good records, and then placed it in a safe cabinet drawer. After CBS Labs closed in the mid 80's, I brought it home and kept it in my closet all these years. I do not have a microscope to prpperly check the stylus tip, but it looks fine under a 10X magnifying loop."

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanton-881...rd_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item416a7f64ef

    (absolutely no change in the text by me, even in the vocabulary)
     
  20. Slack

    Slack Forum Resident

    The wear issue is greatly underestimated.Not just of the stylus but of the cantilever ,the suspension and I suspect the generator itself.
    A new cartridge will typically sound better.It is then very easy to assume that if you buy a new cartridge of a different make or model and compare it to the old one that the new one is much better.We tend not to notice the loss in performance because it happens gradually but when we replace it with something new we do.A bit like when we put new tyres on our car.
    I have bought new cartridges of exactly the same model and have always found the new one sounds better [after break in period].
    Some MC cartridges tend to "go off" quite quickly even though the stylus seems to be in as new condition.
     
    Heckto35 likes this.
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