Muffled records phenomena

Sounds a bit strange, I think. Netherland even pressed albums for the UK market, in fact they were one of the biggest suppliers in the world. That they (and Germany) were pressing dubs seems unlikely, but I don't know.

That Eastern Europe, behind the Iron curtain, were confined to pressing dubs seems more likely though...

 

I have original UK Porky cuts of both Foxtrot and SEBTP, and Foxtrot definitely has a darker sound. I think it sounded pretty good on my system, but about as dark as it could get while still sounding good. A high-quality needledrop of the same pressing sounded too dark and dull (as my CD player does not sound quite as lively as my turntable).

I think it is just a dark sounding recording.

 

Exactly what I was wondering and suspecting since both the ones I have are likely from the same owner and seemingly well taken care of. Darker is a way to describe it, but I would almost say muddy and deaf sounding for lack of better terminology. A lot of low end used and so on. I suppose I could get a better sounding copy but now I know that Foxtrot is naturally more dark sounding as you described it, thank you!

I think it could sound a lot better if it was mastered differently, perhaps someday someone will do a proper rework for that album. The dream would be if someone like Chad from Analog Productions got his hands on the tapes in good condition and sent his staff to got to town on it. One can dream.

 

You'll get a pass on good recordings but a more sophisticated stylus profile would certainly extract better detail from more difficult (poorly recorded, poorly mastered, nth generation dub) pressings. The Carbon is a very basic entry level cartridge.(rebranded basic Audio-Technica)

 

Well then, you just put me in a good spot to test. I installed my Nagaoka MP-110 2 days ago but I have not listened to Foxtrot yet. Give me an hour or so to test this theory out and see if the better cart and stylus profile helps. ;^)

 

I haven't read all of this but I can confirm that neither of the two albums the OP quotes are 'muffled'. They aren't the absolute pinnacle of recorded sound but they certainly aren't muffled or otherwise distorted. - I would lean very much towards 'invisible' groove wear. This is a phenomena I personally hadn't experienced (in almost 40 years of buying used LPs) until recently - I bought a seemingly mint copy of Midnight Mushrumps (Gryphon) and it sounded exactly as the OP describes; horribly muffled as if there was a 'carpet' on my stylus. No amount of cleaning (of stylus or record) made things any better...

I wouldn't have believed it possible if I hadn't heard it with my own ears.

 

Hmm Im not sure what to think then. The invisible groove damage you speak of makes sense in a theoretical way. A bad setup from a previous owner played the record a lot and the grooves lose a lot of their shape as the stylus ploughs through them.
If anyone could confirm that worn grooves do indeed sound muffled with less fidelity that might solve the issue here.
Im not talking groove damage, that creates distortion and crackles especially on high frequencies which is also present on both albums but its not a constat issue.
The copy looks and plays NM otherwise.

 

So taking another listen with my new cart reveals that there is indeed some groove damage on the very frequency intensive passages, indicating to me that the previous owner did indeed have a bad or improperly set up cartridge.
The Nagaoka might perhaps improve the muffled sound slightly but I dont dare claim that with confidence, it might just be my imagination.
One thing I did notice more clearly now however was that as Horizons starts Im ready to go change sides because I always forget there is 1 more track. I noticed that that song is definetaly better sounding, if only slightly. But when Suppers Ready begins on the next side its immediately apparent that the fidelity, dynamics and clarity are all improved.
What I suspect is that the first owner usually stopped playing after Can-Utility And The Coastliners making the rest of the album more preserved. I myself always stand up to change after that track as mentioned.
Do tell what you make out of my discovery.

While the Nagaoka didnt help with the first side much it did make the difference between them more clear for me to hear it would seem.

 

Don't buy a German "With The Beatles" with the green band across the cover, its the muddiest sounding record I have ever owned.

 

Anybody ever notice records that are so badly-mastered/muffled that they seem like an outright
sabotage job on the part of the label? The U.S. Capitol promotional 45 of Jesse Lee Kincaid's classic
"She Sang Hymns Out Of Tune" is virtually un-listenable and not suitable for airplay, robbing
that artist of a potential top-4o hit in some markets. Conversely, the standard stock copy is
clear, crisp and a pleasant listen. It's also a lot harder to find, and probably never made it out
of the greater L.A. market until it became a cut-out. I wonder who Kincaid piss*d off at Capitol...

 

The very definition of "blanket over the speakers" sound quality.

 

Well if we again apply what I found here, do you own or have heard more than one copy? If not its possible that the radiostations just overplayed the promo single and degraded it to a muffled and weak sounding record.

 

I've had two white label promos and two stock copies over the years. The promos played (identically) like ****, and the stock copies sounded fine.
All were un-played/mint 'dead stock' copies when I got them, so zero groove-wear was involved. There was an (earlier?) 'small-label' pressing too,
but I've never found one of those in clean enough condition to adjudicate the mastering or pressing quality. It was on a label called Kelly Records.

 

When 99% of records are the same color I think it's safe to assume scientific trivia was not the factor in my post. Do those two reissues come on black records or is it only clear?

 

There are black vinyl versions of (I think) the same mastering. They were issued around 2002 when the DSD/SACD titles came out. There are threads here with more info.

 

Eh? Horizons is the first track on side two.

 

Ah, you are right. I always think it starts with Suppers Ready.

 

My Radio Station Promo copy of the Valentine Brother's 1979 ST album has the "blanket over the speaker" sound quality you speak of. The vinyl looks pristine, and there are hardly any clicks or pops when I play it, so I don't think the bad sound is due to the previous owner wearing down the grooves with a bad stylus.

Vinyl rips of the album from other owners on youtube all sound normal/worlds better than my copy, so I believe I received a faulty pressing that somehow eliminated all treble from the music.

 

When I say "dubs" I'm referring to the record company providing a copy tape to cut from as opposed to mailing stampers. I wasn't insinuating that smaller Western European market pressings would be bootlegs or needle drops.

 

I had German pressed Genesis-Foxtrot, pressed 76-77 if I remember correctly. That was the worst Foxtrot I've ever heard, even though it looked NM. I can't say for sure we're talking about the same copy, but I'm almost sure the sound of it has nothing to do w/ your system. I've never heard bad sounding SEBTP, some are better than others, but never muffled. I don't think it's fare comparison between the two.

I can't help w/ Rainbow - Long Live R'n'R. The only copy I've heard is US pressed and it meets my expectations.

 

Would it not be better to mail the previous steps like the mother so they can make their own stampers? Or were they sjper protective of those too?

 

As far as Dutch, German, Swedish, French etc. copies of UK albums, I found they tend to compare favorably to the UK's. Usually they'll have a different mastering but rarely are they duller or blanketed. For example I have a French pressing of Tull's Thick As A Brick that is awful, yet my French copy of UFO - Flying is fine, and my French Barclay pressing of Hendrix's Are You Experienced is better than the UK Track.

 

There are always exceptions but lets say in general were talking:
-1965-1990.
-Major label releases by US and US acts

Typically only the country the album was recorded had LPs cut from the masters. This changes when the big stars of the day started using 3rd party firms in the US to master their releases. In those cases you might see the same stamper used for:
US ,UK and West Germany. Occasionally Holland and Japan. Sometime South Africa and Israel.

In general though it was just a task, it was more cost effective and expedient for the record company to make a copy tape and send it to the smaller market countries to make their own record.

99% of the West German pressings of US/UK artists are copy tapes. There was a stretch from ~ 1971-1975 where WEA artists would send US master cut stampers, but this is definitely the exception and not the rule. As I mentioned an act like the Stones or The Who might have the power to get their stampers out to more markets, but that's it the exception. Japan was even rarer only a handful of these occurred.

 

Thanks. That's what I thought, but all the copies I found were clear. I assumed that the clear would have a 2013 copyright and the original pressings a 2003, but they all say 2003 and are all clear. Will probably need to get used copies.

Then again, I'd probably rather have a clear record than hold onto the mastered-on-a-deaf-sock pressing that I paid $20 for. I don't care if it's original or not... a ****ty sounding record still sounds like ****.

 

Bad sounding in the way the OP describes?